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    Horrorcore's effect on Sam

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    ziggy

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    Horrorcore's effect on Sam

    Post by ziggy on Wed Feb 17, 2010 2:16 pm

    I'd still like to explore the power of the "music" and the possible influences it might have had in the deaths of four people.

    Unlike Art or Movies - Music has a different kind of power that cannot be compared. The only other thing that can evoke a memory faster is the sense of smell - the ol' olfactory...

    I think it's a fascinating idea considering that music can halt a man from stuttering when he sings, can allow the stroke victim to form words and sing when they cannot even speak and calm or aggitate tourettes patients.

    We have to just admit here that this medium is different than a horror movie or reading Stephen King or looking at hideous images - there is a very real and serious connection that sound has in our souls and our beings that is not captured in the other influences that "music" is being compared to in this case.

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    respectfully snipped:
    "That music and especially melody can be profoundly evocative is clear. But what is it that is evoked? Anthony Storr quotes Suzanne Langer and Marcel Proust in this regard. For Proust, ‘Music ... helped me to descend into myself, to discover new things; the variety that I had sought in vain in life, in travel, but a longing for which was nonetheless renewed in me by this sonorous tide.’ Jonathan Miller, the opera director, summarizes this in a single word: the real role of music, in his view, is not to take one outside oneself, but to take one inside oneself. Suzanne Langer goes further, writing that music not only has the power to recall past emotions, but to evoke ‘emotions and moods we have not felt, passions we did not know before.’

    This wonderful, enlarging power, can, however, be deeply upsetting to those who need to have their emotions and imaginations under tight control—whether this be obsessive or artistic. Thus, Tolstoy was deeply ambivalent about music—it had, he felt, a power to induce in him ‘fictitious’ states of mind, emotions and images that were not his own, and not under his control. He adored Tschaikovsky's music, but often refused to listen to it, and in The Kreutzer Sonata, he described the seduction of the narrator's wife by a violinist and his music—the two of them play Beethoven's Kreutzer Sonata together, and this music is so powerful, the narrator comes to think, that it can change a woman's heart, and cause her to be unfaithful. The story ends with the outraged husband murdering his wife—though the real enemy, he feels, the enemy he cannot kill, is the music."

    🐘 never forgets and the music will not let you
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    Hank

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    Re: Horrorcore's effect on Sam

    Post by Hank on Wed Feb 17, 2010 6:48 pm

    I agree.It's like music and the heart speak the same language...rhythm.♪
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    dangrsmind

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    Re: Horrorcore's effect on Sam

    Post by dangrsmind on Wed Feb 17, 2010 8:35 pm

    There's not much scientific evidence to support your thesis...

    There is research that shows that listening to violent music "primes" a person for aggression, however almost none of the people that listen to violent music actually become violent.

    Another indication, incidents of violence and violent crime do not correlate with performances of horrorcore music or other violent music such as death metal. Most criminals do not listen to horrorcore.

    These sorts crimes are in fact pretty rare and do not support the idea that merely listening to the music can make someone violent or "influence" their behavior towards violence.
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    charliechan

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    Re: Horrorcore's effect on Sam

    Post by charliechan on Sat Feb 20, 2010 7:32 pm

    I agree that music is a powerful force. I've spoken with country star Mel Tillis (an infamous studderer) and he didn't studder. But then again ,he didn't say much either. A lot of studder folks don't have a problem until they have to speak off the top of their head. Reading out loud and singing songs is easy. The other stuff is not as easy. But back to the power of music. I myself (even being the famous rock star that I am) sometimes find myself leading a Walter Mitty existence. I don't think Sam's ever had anything but that.
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    Percy
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    Re: Horrorcore's effect on Sam

    Post by Percy on Sat Feb 20, 2010 7:35 pm

    Welcome in Chan, glad you made it!


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    ziggy

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    Re: Horrorcore's effect on Sam

    Post by ziggy on Sun Feb 21, 2010 10:06 pm

    Yay, Charlie Chan's here.

    Dangrs I wish I could find something scientific to back up my thoughts on this subject. There has to be something out there. If there are scientific studies and real life examples to show the effect of music on stroke victims, people with speech problems and tourettes then I don't see how anyone can refute that there is a significant link between the music we hear and brain function and the possible mood altering ability it may have. I'm not saying that music is the cause alone, but it's influence could be huge imo.

    And what about hypnosis? I got some CDs for relaxation and alertness etc. that are supposed to use hypnosis. I just sit back and listen and follow along with the visualizations.

    Can listening to that garbage put one in a state where the content in the gematria becomes a subliminal suggestion?
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    charliechan

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    Re: Horrorcore's effect on Sam

    Post by charliechan on Mon Feb 22, 2010 8:18 pm

    WHEN I spoke about the power of music, I was talkin more about like when Mick Fleetwood went to Africa and played with the Kenyan tribal drum troupes. If they don,t make you shake your booty, you ain't got no booty. They don,t have electricity! I've seen Sam's fathers band. How is Sam supposed to have a clue? I'm holdin the line on LWOP. His father needs a severe beating.
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    Percy
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    Re: Horrorcore's effect on Sam

    Post by Percy on Sat Mar 06, 2010 1:26 am

    A new member of our group, THE KAY and I were having a little discussion about horrorcore music, she had never heard of it and was doing some research on it and wanted to know more and was sort of curious what would drive someone to want to listen to that sort of music so if any of you would like to chime in, especially mary or pixy who are fans of the genere and engage her in her curiosity that would be great.

    As you all know we had a rather long discussion when the case first broke as to whether the music is what caused sam to be come a murderer etc, so we could continue that discussion here and I am curious myself to see how people's ideas on this has changed since the case broke.

    Would like to add, just for Kay's sake, that Ziggy is someone who really feels this music had a big influence on Sam and what he did so she will certainly want to be part of this discussion.


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    dangrsmind

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    Re: Horrorcore's effect on Sam

    Post by dangrsmind on Sat Mar 06, 2010 10:42 am

    As far as why people listen to horrorcore...

    Why do people read Stephen King or Dean Koontz novels?

    Why do people watch horror movies?

    Same thing IMO.

    Now SKR is going a bit further than just the horror formula which most of the artists in the scene follow, claiming for example that SickTanick's CDs are in fact "audio grimoires", a spell book, and that their music is encoding deep occult secrets. Whether this is true or not might not matter to the case, but then again maybe it does.

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    Re: Horrorcore's effect on Sam

    Post by Guest on Sat Mar 06, 2010 11:03 am

    dangrsmind wrote:As far as why people listen to horrorcore...

    Why do people read Stephen King or Dean Koontz novels?

    Why do people watch horror movies?

    Same thing IMO.

    Now SKR is going a bit further than just the horror formula which most of the artists in the scene follow, claiming for example that SickTanick's CDs are in fact "audio grimoires", a spell book, and that their music is encoding deep occult secrets. Whether this is true or not might not matter to the case, but then again maybe it does.

    I was wondering if the horrorcore fans liked (and were promoting) murders. Pax gave me the horror film analogy and that helped. However, I don't see movie theaters filled with people are who dressed like these horrorcore fans. Do these fans dress/look like that for the concerts and then go home and change back to an every day look? Are the rappers actually satan worshippers (that may not be the correct term) or are those references just part of the commercial gimmick?
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    dangrsmind

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    Re: Horrorcore's effect on Sam

    Post by dangrsmind on Sat Mar 06, 2010 11:19 am

    I don't think SickTanick's interest in Satanism is a gimmick. There has been some disagreement on this point however.

    The music talks about murder, but does that equal promoting it? That is one of the fundamental questions raised by the case I think Kay.

    And yes I think for the most part the horrorcore kids leave the fake blood off when they go to work or school but maybe PiXy or ScaryMary can say more about that part.
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    piXy

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    Re: Horrorcore's effect on Sam

    Post by piXy on Sat Mar 06, 2010 1:01 pm

    Raz hates God bc her parents are Ministers and were very mean to her and her brother while they were growing up.I think this is why the Satanism. On Doctrines of the Damned part 1 Sick has a song called "this is my story, this is my life" and on Team Deaths Unholy Noel album called "no gifts for me" that was a very personal song for Raz and hard for her too perform. Raz's song"isolated feelings" and "God is Imaginary" song is very personal.... the most recent for her is off her new cd called "ripping apart from the inside" where she actually cries in the song.
    Sick is an occultist. not a satanist.
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    Peace

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    Re: Horrorcore's effect on Sam

    Post by Peace on Sat Mar 06, 2010 3:29 pm

    Pixy do you have the words to isolated feelings and God is imaginary?
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    piXy

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    Re: Horrorcore's effect on Sam

    Post by piXy on Sat Mar 06, 2010 4:47 pm

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    Isolated feelings

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    God Is Imaginary
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    piXy

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    Re: Horrorcore's effect on Sam

    Post by piXy on Sat Mar 06, 2010 4:55 pm

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    This is a better one....... No Gifts for Me

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    Re: Horrorcore's effect on Sam

    Post by Guest on Sat Mar 06, 2010 5:53 pm

    Peace wrote:Pixy do you have the words to isolated feelings and God is imaginary?


    Lyrics to Isolated Feelings:

    Isolated feelings, its like my heart is bleeding. I can't escape it, inside my head it keeps repeating. Isolated feelings its like my heart is bleeding. I can't escape it, inside my head it keeps repeating. Everytime I seem to close my eyes I feel so dead inside so I cry myself to sleep. All I ever do is think of the pain, feels like I'm goin insane, so I cry myself to sleep. I don't wanna be talked to, I don't wanna be touched, I don't need your advice, I don't wanna be fucked. People think I have it all but I don't have much. I just wanna fly away but to the ground I'm stuck. I'd just rather walk away but you don't seem to understand. Why should I voice my opinion when you have the upper hand? Its kinda sad I'm right back in the same position, I got so many eager ears but still nobody ever listens. And my friends? Yeah man I aint got much of that, just people dyin to be in the presence of that bitch Raz. And thats fine cause in reality I'm ugly inside. If you really knew the truth I'd bet you'd quit wasting your time, and your money. I'm like a seed planted deep nurished by hate. I've evolved into this monster with a face of disgrace. Everyday is just the same, is soemthing missing inside? Certain scenes keep haunting me, and keep me cryin at night. Why were others more important, why did I come last? I'm so tattered and torn its like a blast from the past. I know I aint the one to judge but I can't help it sometimes. When I step outside the box I notice forespread lies. So I cry myself to sleep, someone listen please. I'm so bitter inside. Its almost hard to breathe, like I'm asmatic when I talk you hear static. You can't grasp or understand it. Once again I've given into madness. Isolated feelings, its like my heart is bleeding I can't escape it, inside my head it keeps repeating. Isolated feeligns, its like my heart is bleeding, I can't escpae it, inside my head it keeps repeating. Everytime I seem to close my eyes I feel so dead inside so i cry myself to sleep. All i ever do is think of the pain, feels like I'm goin insane so I cry myself to sleep...

    http://www.elyrics.net/read/r/razakel-lyrics/isolated-feelings-lyrics.html
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    Percy
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    Re: Horrorcore's effect on Sam

    Post by Percy on Sat Mar 06, 2010 6:57 pm

    The Kay wrote:
    Peace wrote:Pixy do you have the words to isolated feelings and God is imaginary?


    Lyrics to Isolated Feelings:

    Isolated feelings, its like my heart is bleeding. I can't escape it, inside my head it keeps repeating. Isolated feelings its like my heart is bleeding. I can't escape it, inside my head it keeps repeating. Everytime I seem to close my eyes I feel so dead inside so I cry myself to sleep. All I ever do is think of the pain, feels like I'm goin insane, so I cry myself to sleep. I don't wanna be talked to, I don't wanna be touched, I don't need your advice, I don't wanna be fucked. People think I have it all but I don't have much. I just wanna fly away but to the ground I'm stuck. I'd just rather walk away but you don't seem to understand. Why should I voice my opinion when you have the upper hand? Its kinda sad I'm right back in the same position, I got so many eager ears but still nobody ever listens. And my friends? Yeah man I aint got much of that, just people dyin to be in the presence of that bitch Raz. And thats fine cause in reality I'm ugly inside. If you really knew the truth I'd bet you'd quit wasting your time, and your money. I'm like a seed planted deep nurished by hate. I've evolved into this monster with a face of disgrace. Everyday is just the same, is soemthing missing inside? Certain scenes keep haunting me, and keep me cryin at night. Why were others more important, why did I come last? I'm so tattered and torn its like a blast from the past. I know I aint the one to judge but I can't help it sometimes. When I step outside the box I notice forespread lies. So I cry myself to sleep, someone listen please. I'm so bitter inside. Its almost hard to breathe, like I'm asmatic when I talk you hear static. You can't grasp or understand it. Once again I've given into madness. Isolated feelings, its like my heart is bleeding I can't escape it, inside my head it keeps repeating. Isolated feeligns, its like my heart is bleeding, I can't escpae it, inside my head it keeps repeating. Everytime I seem to close my eyes I feel so dead inside so i cry myself to sleep. All i ever do is think of the pain, feels like I'm goin insane so I cry myself to sleep...

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    They are human like anyone else and they have their own pain and problems to deal with, my problem with them is this us against the world attitude they have with everyone, I have dealt up close and personal with both of them and they were very rude, condescending and patronizing to me when I came in with a good positive, polite and honest vibe wanting to tell their story, they were convinced I was a bad guy who wanted to do them harm and treated me very harshly for it.


    SKR is different than other horrocore artists in that they do bring satanism and occult in to it where a lot of horrorcore artists do not. If you look in to ICP (Insane Clown Posse) which a lot of people thought were devil worshipers, they came out with the JOKERS CARDS (google ICP jokers cards interpretation for some interesting reading) and in the end they admitted they were at least semi-christian and had been speaking in code about god all along, it was hidden in the lyrics between all the murder and mayhem but you had to really look to see and notice it.


    As far as dressing up at concerts, you dont see that at horror films in theaters, true, but if you have ever heard of the ROCKY HORROR PICTURE SHOW, that is what they do, its a group of people in to that film and they all go to the theatre on weekends and dress up as characters and act it out right there in the theatre seats while the film is playing, I would say this SOMEWHAT SIMILAR to what goes on at a horrorcore show.


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    AndresEscobar

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    Re: Horrorcore's effect on Sam

    Post by AndresEscobar on Sat Mar 06, 2010 7:26 pm

    Good analogy, Pax.
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    Re: Horrorcore's effect on Sam

    Post by charliechan on Sun Mar 07, 2010 12:12 am

    "I have dealt up close and personal with both of them and they were very rude, condescending and patronizing to me when I came in with a good positive, polite and honest vibe wanting to tell their story" That's because in reality, they're not all that bright. When it comes to dealing with true intellegence they have a very real need to keep things "a bit shrouded". I'd score them high on survival skills but low on true intellegence.
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    Re: Horrorcore's effect on Sam

    Post by blouAngel on Sun Mar 07, 2010 12:27 am

    Paximus wrote:[
    They are human like anyone else and they have their own pain and problems to deal with, my problem with them is this us against the world attitude they have with everyone, I have dealt up close and personal with both of them and they were very rude, condescending and patronizing to me when I came in with a good positive, polite and honest vibe wanting to tell their story, they were convinced I was a bad guy who wanted to do them harm and treated me very harshly for it.


    It's easier for me to detach myself, because it was your overtures that were rejected and not my own, but I can see them not wanting an outsider telling their story. That after all is the niche they have carved for themselves. Raz claims and seems to be singing autobiography. Sick seems to me to be speaking of his power, both over himself and over people as well as whatever inanimate objects/forces is occultist leaning make him believe he controls. You can't come into either of those realms as anything other than outsider and therefore irrelevant at best and threat at worst. They have no reason to welcome you and no reason to make that anything less than completely clear.
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    ziggy

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    Re: Horrorcore's effect on Sam

    Post by ziggy on Sun Mar 07, 2010 1:06 am

    I think activities such as going to horror movies and reading Stephen King are distinguishable from being a horrorcore fan/artist.

    I'm just going to generalize that most people go to horror movies and read scary novels because they like to get scared a bit. It's a short-term thrill that's safer to engage in than say...bungee jumping. People love the rush - because most of us don't face that kind of danger in our modern lives. Perhaps there is some primal need to feel it; to still relate to that intense fear; to go to it because it doesn't come to us. True some people love horror movies but they don't live their lives with those movies at the core of their belief system - they like the way it makes them feel more alive in the moment of fear. I think it is the same reason people engage in high risk activities, but the salad or light beer version.

    Horrorcore is a sub-culture where the lives of the people who are into this REVOLVE around the who, what, when and where of these "artists" and any subject matter that is truly grotesque by wearing the jewelry and dressing to conform ,or more likely, to tell the world "fuck you, this is WHO I AM".

    They wear their ugliness as a badge of honor. They idolize real killers, not make believe hockey mask wearing ones. And I firmly believe they are into Satanism as a way to justify how they've decided to live their lives. It is obvious they blame others for who they are and find their power in being so disgusting that they punish those who've hurt them. The genre is an outlet for their anger and therein lies the difference for me. When others who feel the same way feed their minds with that anger, that destruction of others to preserve self, they become empowered to amp up the attitude of "fuck you, you made me who I am, so who are you to judge me? And by the way watch how really sick and disgusting I can be" and they use their so-called music to put it "in your face" so to speak.

    I don't see that intent with a movie or novel. It's just a really scary story. It's not punishment or payback. I do not believe it is as big an influence.
    I admit there can be no criminal cuplability to artists for their music, but that doesn't mean a negative effect on people or their actions doesn't exist.

    That kind of punishment or payback only comes back on them but I don't think they can see it throught their rage. Raz hints to it in that song.

    I think she feels so painted into a corner. She was made to feel like a worthless piece of flesh, so she allowed herself to become that and then embraced it to lessen the hurt by overpowering it with anger. Now that she's told the world how awful and sick she is and how proud she is of her wicked self, she will never be allowed to heal the hurt person inside (I kind of get that from her song; I almost sense a smidge of shame). Someone put her in that box, then she embraced it, then she commercialized it and now there's no turning back.

    We've all been pushed to a point of hurt that causes us to lash out and want to hurt others. I think that is the basis for the music. I don't see that as a basis for horror movies and books.

    Deep in my heart I don't believe she really enjoys being treated like a whore. I think Shirm probably makes her feel good about herself because he doesn't judge and he protects her in that way so she is with him, but I'll bet money that there's a girl inside her that wishes she had real love and respect. She knows it exists, but she's never had it. Being angry about that is what created "Razakel".

    Having said that and listened to those songs, I now believe that original artwork could have been about her...the ragdoll was her former self. You can see in earlier pictures she wore more ragdoll-ish clothing. The heads were HER parents and the fetus is her never wanting to have children or maybe portraying that she never should have been born according to her parents. She transformed herself into this wicked bxtch to deal with it, over power it, control it.


    Crap I'm rambling. What thread am I in? Lol.
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    piXy

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    Re: Horrorcore's effect on Sam

    Post by piXy on Sun Mar 07, 2010 2:29 am

    Having said that and listened to those songs, I now believe that original artwork could have been about her...the ragdoll was her former self. You can see in earlier pictures she wore more ragdoll-ish clothing. The heads were HER parents and the fetus is her never wanting to have children or maybe portraying that she never should have been born according to her parents. She transformed herself into this wicked bxtch to deal with it, over power it, control it.

    I am inclined to agree with you there
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    Re: Horrorcore's effect on Sam

    Post by claudicici on Sun Mar 07, 2010 2:42 am

    ...always said that...the ragdoll is about her...and girls in general..
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    ziggy

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    Re: Horrorcore's effect on Sam

    Post by ziggy on Sun Mar 07, 2010 3:03 am

    Sorry I missed that you'd said that before Claudi! Something in that picture of her and the song brought that into focus for me and you're right...all girls.
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    Re: Horrorcore's effect on Sam

    Post by claudicici on Sun Mar 07, 2010 3:35 am

    lol, maybe didn't say it but always thought it...don't remember...

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