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    Why did Sam do it?

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    Percy
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    Re: Why did Sam do it?

    Post by Percy on Sat Mar 13, 2010 5:40 pm

    AndresEscobar wrote:
    Paximus wrote:Lets get back to why Sam did it.

    Rumor is he saw some text msgs from other guys who Emma met at the concert, we also have in the Razlogs a comment by Raz that she spoke to Emma while Emma and Sam were in the van on their way back to Farmville, the comment Emma supposedly made to Raz was something along the lines of "I am sitting here in the van with someone I dont want to be with, he has become somebody I want nothing to do with."

    This is motive.

    Yeah, but just because a girl doesn't like me doesn't make me want to kill her.

    Right, and thats where we introduce insanity.


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    AndresEscobar

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    Re: Why did Sam do it?

    Post by AndresEscobar on Sat Mar 13, 2010 5:47 pm

    Paximus wrote:
    AndresEscobar wrote:
    Paximus wrote:Lets get back to why Sam did it.

    Rumor is he saw some text msgs from other guys who Emma met at the concert, we also have in the Razlogs a comment by Raz that she spoke to Emma while Emma and Sam were in the van on their way back to Farmville, the comment Emma supposedly made to Raz was something along the lines of "I am sitting here in the van with someone I dont want to be with, he has become somebody I want nothing to do with."

    This is motive.

    Yeah, but just because a girl doesn't like me doesn't make me want to kill her.

    Right, and thats where we introduce insanity.

    Yes.

    But, I think there's some big thing that we don't know that would make this make a lot more sense.
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    AndresEscobar

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    Re: Why did Sam do it?

    Post by AndresEscobar on Sat Mar 13, 2010 5:49 pm

    What about PCP?

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    Re: Why did Sam do it?

    Post by crowlovesheathermmfwcl on Sat Mar 13, 2010 5:56 pm

    Paximus wrote:
    Crow wrote:I don't want to say this wrong but Sam looks a little 'tetched' you know? i don't mean mentally ill but slow.

    I wish we had access to some video of him in conversation with others, that would tell us a lot along those lines, I can see it from what we do have but its not conclusive.

    i found some videos on his youtube account hes semi talking to people if you want i could post em here
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    blouAngel

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    Re: Why did Sam do it?

    Post by blouAngel on Sat Mar 13, 2010 6:18 pm

    dangrsmind wrote:Crows are one of the key vectors of West Nile Virus: [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]


    NSA or anyone else got a scrub for that yet?
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    AndresEscobar

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    Re: Why did Sam do it?

    Post by AndresEscobar on Sat Mar 13, 2010 6:20 pm

    blouAngel wrote:

    NSA or anyone else got a scrub for that yet?

    Is someone hackering your computer too?
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    Re: Why did Sam do it?

    Post by blouAngel on Sat Mar 13, 2010 6:20 pm

    AndresEscobar wrote:
    Paximus wrote:Lets get back to why Sam did it.

    Rumor is he saw some text msgs from other guys who Emma met at the concert, we also have in the Razlogs a comment by Raz that she spoke to Emma while Emma and Sam were in the van on their way back to Farmville, the comment Emma supposedly made to Raz was something along the lines of "I am sitting here in the van with someone I dont want to be with, he has become somebody I want nothing to do with."

    This is motive.

    Yeah, but just because a girl doesn't like me doesn't make me want to kill her.

    well aren't we mr. high and mighty

    WTF!?

    that was meant in jest should there be any doubt


    Last edited by blouAngel on Sat Mar 13, 2010 6:23 pm; edited 1 time in total
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    Percy
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    Re: Why did Sam do it?

    Post by Percy on Sat Mar 13, 2010 6:22 pm

    crowlovesheathermmfwcl wrote:
    Paximus wrote:
    Crow wrote:I don't want to say this wrong but Sam looks a little 'tetched' you know? i don't mean mentally ill but slow.

    I wish we had access to some video of him in conversation with others, that would tell us a lot along those lines, I can see it from what we do have but its not conclusive.

    i found some videos on his youtube account hes semi talking to people if you want i could post em here

    PLEASE DO, post anything you can find about SAM, especially VIDEO of him talking.


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    blouAngel

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    Re: Why did Sam do it?

    Post by blouAngel on Sat Mar 13, 2010 6:22 pm

    AndresEscobar wrote:
    blouAngel wrote:

    NSA or anyone else got a scrub for that yet?

    Is someone hackering your computer too?

    hacking, slacking, and even a little spackling. that's the intertubes 4 u
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    Percy
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    Re: Why did Sam do it?

    Post by Percy on Sat Mar 13, 2010 6:22 pm

    blouAngel wrote:
    AndresEscobar wrote:
    Paximus wrote:Lets get back to why Sam did it.

    Rumor is he saw some text msgs from other guys who Emma met at the concert, we also have in the Razlogs a comment by Raz that she spoke to Emma while Emma and Sam were in the van on their way back to Farmville, the comment Emma supposedly made to Raz was something along the lines of "I am sitting here in the van with someone I dont want to be with, he has become somebody I want nothing to do with."

    This is motive.

    Yeah, but just because a girl doesn't like me doesn't make me want to kill her.

    well aren't we mr. high and mighty

    WTF!?



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    Re: Why did Sam do it?

    Post by Percy on Sat Mar 13, 2010 6:25 pm

    AndresEscobar wrote:What about PCP?

    Thats interesting. I note BIG LURCH was on PCP when he ripped out the heart of a girl he was with one night and started eating it.


    For those that dont know, google BIG LURCH, another horrorcore rapper/killer. Crazy case.


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    Re: Why did Sam do it?

    Post by ziggy on Sat Mar 13, 2010 6:33 pm

    I don't think Sam has a mental dificiency that would qualify under the legal insanity defense. Isn't Virginia in the M'Naugton Rule jurisdiction? I think it's much more difficult to meet those requirements.

    I think Sam has classic personality disorders, perhaps severe, but those aren't going to allow him an insanity defense.

    I think Sam saw the texts, got angry, needed revenge and then decided to "show them"....you wann hurt me? then I'll hurt you back 10 times harder with a wood maul and ball peen hammer.

    I think it's just classic character flaw - he spent money and time on this trip only to be treated like he had cooties - got so angry and needed his vengence. He lashed out. He is not insane, not by a long shot...not criminally insane and that's all that will help mitigate his murder into a manslaughter conviction.
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    Percy
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    Re: Why did Sam do it?

    Post by Percy on Sat Mar 13, 2010 6:38 pm

    ziggy wrote:I don't think Sam has a mental dificiency that would qualify under the legal insanity defense. Isn't Virginia in the M'Naugton Rule jurisdiction? I think it's much more difficult to meet those requirements.

    I think Sam has classic personality disorders, perhaps severe, but those aren't going to allow him an insanity defense.

    I think Sam saw the texts, got angry, needed revenge and then decided to "show them"....you wann hurt me? then I'll hurt you back 10 times harder with a wood maul and ball peen hammer.

    I think it's just classic character flaw - he spent money and time on this trip only to be treated like he had cooties - got so angry and needed his vengence. He lashed out. He is not insane, not by a long shot...not criminally insane and that's all that will help mitigate his murder into a manslaughter conviction.

    All excellent points but I tend to agree with AE at this point that there is something that we havent seen yet that will eventually make it all make sense for us. I have no idea what that something would be but I think its there and just hasnt been released yet.


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    AndresEscobar

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    Re: Why did Sam do it?

    Post by AndresEscobar on Sat Mar 13, 2010 6:39 pm

    ziggy wrote:I don't think Sam has a mental dificiency that would qualify under the legal insanity defense. Isn't Virginia in the M'Naugton Rule jurisdiction? I think it's much more difficult to meet those requirements.

    I think Sam has classic personality disorders, perhaps severe, but those aren't going to allow him an insanity defense.

    I think Sam saw the texts, got angry, needed revenge and then decided to "show them"....you wann hurt me? then I'll hurt you back 10 times harder with a wood maul and ball peen hammer.

    I think it's just classic character flaw - he spent money and time on this trip only to be treated like he had cooties - got so angry and needed his vengence. He lashed out. He is not insane, not by a long shot...not criminally insane and that's all that will help mitigate his murder into a manslaughter conviction.

    I don't think you can say that he's "not insane, not be a long shot" conclusively.

    Also, when girls say bad things about me, I don't try to hurt them with a maul or hammer.
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    Re: Why did Sam do it?

    Post by Percy on Sat Mar 13, 2010 6:42 pm

    AndresEscobar wrote:
    ziggy wrote:I don't think Sam has a mental dificiency that would qualify under the legal insanity defense. Isn't Virginia in the M'Naugton Rule jurisdiction? I think it's much more difficult to meet those requirements.

    I think Sam has classic personality disorders, perhaps severe, but those aren't going to allow him an insanity defense.

    I think Sam saw the texts, got angry, needed revenge and then decided to "show them"....you wann hurt me? then I'll hurt you back 10 times harder with a wood maul and ball peen hammer.

    I think it's just classic character flaw - he spent money and time on this trip only to be treated like he had cooties - got so angry and needed his vengence. He lashed out. He is not insane, not by a long shot...not criminally insane and that's all that will help mitigate his murder into a manslaughter conviction.

    I don't think you can say that he's "not insane, not be a long shot" conclusively.

    Also, when girls say bad things about me, I don't try to hurt them with a maul or hammer.


    Thats what needs to be hammered home by the defense, WHAT exactly makes Sam react the way he did when rejected when the rest of us would simply say ok, ill go get me a new piece off ass I dont need this shit, and walk away.


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    Re: Why did Sam do it?

    Post by dangrsmind on Sat Mar 13, 2010 6:43 pm

    Peter Levenda points out that both Charles Manson and Adolph Hitler were frustrated artists. Pure speculation here: perhaps the events that led to the murders had more to do with damaging Sam's social status in the horrorcore community rather than a simple romantic rejection.
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    Re: Why did Sam do it?

    Post by Percy on Sat Mar 13, 2010 6:46 pm

    dangrsmind wrote:Peter Levenda points out that both Charles Manson and Adolph Hitler were frustrated artists. Pure speculation here: perhaps the events that led to the murders had more to do with damaging his social status in the horrorcore community rather than a simple romantic rejection.
    Thats another interesting twist we spoke about early on at WS, I remember you bringing up Levenda at that time also. Indeed he may have been more upset about losing his status with his boys than he was about just losing Emma. The reaction, a brutal murder, to regain his standing within a community known to worship those who do exactly such things, would make sense then.

    I actually really like this theory the more I consider it, it was less about Emma than it was about his horrocore community reputation and what better way IN HIS FUCKED UP HEAD, to regain that respect, than to commit the brutal act of murdering of 4 people with a freakin' maul.

    The phone call to Syniister supports this also.

    This would be a sound strategy for the prosecution.


    Last edited by Paximus on Sat Mar 13, 2010 6:50 pm; edited 2 times in total


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    Re: Why did Sam do it?

    Post by AndresEscobar on Sat Mar 13, 2010 6:50 pm

    Paximus wrote:


    Thats what needs to be hammered home by the defense, WHAT exactly makes Sam react the way he did when rejected when the rest of us would simply say ok, ill go get me a new piece off ass I dont need this shit, and walk away.

    Well, Ziggy's assertion that he just did it to get vengeance or whatever but is not insane doesn't hold water for me. No sane person "shows" anyone for saying bad things about them by bashing in their skulls and killing their family.

    There's something missing from our facts that is vital to understanding this.
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    Re: Why did Sam do it?

    Post by Percy on Sat Mar 13, 2010 6:51 pm

    AndresEscobar wrote:
    Paximus wrote:


    Thats what needs to be hammered home by the defense, WHAT exactly makes Sam react the way he did when rejected when the rest of us would simply say ok, ill go get me a new piece off ass I dont need this shit, and walk away.

    Well, Ziggy's assertion that he just did it to get vengeance or whatever but is not insane doesn't hold water for me. No sane person "shows" anyone for saying bad things about them by bashing in their skulls and killing their family.

    But thats going to come down to, did he know it was wrong to react in such a manner?


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    Re: Why did Sam do it?

    Post by AndresEscobar on Sat Mar 13, 2010 7:02 pm

    Paximus wrote:

    But thats going to come down to, did he know it was wrong to react in such a manner?

    Maybe. I'm not arguing that he's insane: I'm arguing that he didn't do it because they said some mean things about him.
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    Re: Why did Sam do it?

    Post by Percy on Sat Mar 13, 2010 7:09 pm

    AndresEscobar wrote:
    Paximus wrote:

    But thats going to come down to, did he know it was wrong to react in such a manner?

    Maybe. I'm not arguing that he's insane: I'm arguing that he didn't do it because they said some mean things about him.

    Right. So in otherwords there is something else we havent seen yet. Which I, of course, believe also.


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    Re: Why did Sam do it?

    Post by ziggy on Sat Mar 13, 2010 7:17 pm

    AndresEscobar wrote:
    Paximus wrote:


    Thats what needs to be hammered home by the defense, WHAT exactly makes Sam react the way he did when rejected when the rest of us would simply say ok, ill go get me a new piece off ass I dont need this shit, and walk away.

    Well, Ziggy's assertion that he just did it to get vengeance or whatever but is not insane doesn't hold water for me. No sane person "shows" anyone for saying bad things about them by bashing in their skulls and killing their family.

    There's something missing from our facts that is vital to understanding this.

    Andres the critical flaw in your assertion that "No sane person "shows" anyone for saying bad things about them by bashing in their skulls and killing their family." is that under your conclusion we would have to clasify all people who kill due to anger management issues as legally insane and in a way "forgive" their defect by mitigating their charges or sending them to a mental institution until the are "cured".

    That's too big a step for the courts and that is why they don't follow your reasoning and require a higher degree of proof of legal insanity - a mental defect so great that the person does not know the difference between right and wrong. Sam knew his actions were wrong because he lied to the cab driver about leaving while Emma was she slept. If he had not known what he'd done was wrong he would have just told the cabbie how he killed her because of....blah blah blah whatever his story is.

    Anger issues are personality disorders. LEGALLY insane is what the court will require. Of course we all know that someone is totally "off" if they brutally kill for vengenance but it happens all the time. For instance,jealousy isn't going to be enough to prove adequate provocation for a heat of passion killing and people get jealous and murder all the time just as people get mad and murder. All people who do this do not meet the requirements of LEGAL INSANITY just because in our own subjective view, "they must be insane to do that". Uh uh. You will need more than that.
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    Re: Why did Sam do it?

    Post by the tapu on Sat Mar 13, 2010 7:18 pm

    What she said. Its a circular argument that he must be insane to do that because to do it he has to be insane.
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    Re: Why did Sam do it?

    Post by ziggy on Sat Mar 13, 2010 7:21 pm

    And if he didn't do it because they said mean things about him, or he saw texts that pissed him off, or was losing his SKR cred...that is all irrelevant. Whatever "made" him do it won't matter if it is objectively unreasonable to murder 4 people over it and especially if it can be shown he is able to distinguish right from wrong. Nobody can "make" anyone do anything they don't want to. He murdered of his own free will, with a mind capable of knowing right from wrong. His motives can be flawed, evil, whatever but motive and intent are two separate things.
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    AndresEscobar

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    Re: Why did Sam do it?

    Post by AndresEscobar on Sat Mar 13, 2010 7:28 pm

    ziggy wrote:
    AndresEscobar wrote:
    Paximus wrote:


    Thats what needs to be hammered home by the defense, WHAT exactly makes Sam react the way he did when rejected when the rest of us would simply say ok, ill go get me a new piece off ass I dont need this shit, and walk away.

    Well, Ziggy's assertion that he just did it to get vengeance or whatever but is not insane doesn't hold water for me. No sane person "shows" anyone for saying bad things about them by bashing in their skulls and killing their family.

    There's something missing from our facts that is vital to understanding this.

    Andres the critical flaw in your assertion that "No sane person "shows" anyone for saying bad things about them by bashing in their skulls and killing their family." is that under your conclusion we would have to clasify all people who kill due to anger management issues as legally insane and in a way "forgive" their defect by mitigating their charges or sending them to a mental institution until the are "cured".

    That's too big a step for the courts and that is why they don't follow your reasoning and require a higher degree of proof of legal insanity - a mental defect so great that the person does not know the difference between right and wrong. Sam knew his actions were wrong because he lied to the cab driver about leaving while Emma was she slept. If he had not known what he'd done was wrong he would have just told the cabbie how he killed her because of....blah blah blah whatever his story is.

    Anger issues are personality disorders. LEGALLY insane is what the court will require. Of course we all know that someone is totally "off" if they brutally kill for vengenance but it happens all the time. For instance,jealousy isn't going to be enough to prove adequate provocation for a heat of passion killing and people get jealous and murder all the time just as people get mad and murder. All people who do this do not meet the requirements of LEGAL INSANITY just because in our own subjective view, "they must be insane to do that". Uh uh. You will need more than that.

    no, you're conflating my argument.

    You don't know he's not insane because you're not a professional trained in determining such matters and you haven't evaluated him. Therefore, your conclusion that he's not insane, not by a long shot is incorrect.

    My argument is we don't have the facts at hand with regard to what actually happened or Sam's mental state to conclude that he's not insane or that he did it because he read some texts to "show them". I'm arguing that there's probably something else that lead to Sam doing it.

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