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    Why did Sam do it?

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    Percy
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    Re: Why did Sam do it?

    Post by Percy on Sat Mar 13, 2010 7:30 pm

    Yes but keep in mind that AE is arguing from the belief that there is more to all of this than we know and when it all finally comes out it will make better sense.


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    AndresEscobar

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    Re: Why did Sam do it?

    Post by AndresEscobar on Sat Mar 13, 2010 7:30 pm

    ziggy wrote:And if he didn't do it because they said mean things about him, or he saw texts that pissed him off, or was losing his SKR cred...that is all irrelevant. Whatever "made" him do it won't matter if it is objectively unreasonable to murder 4 people over it and especially if it can be shown he is able to distinguish right from wrong. Nobody can "make" anyone do anything they don't want to. He murdered of his own free will, with a mind capable of knowing right from wrong. His motives can be flawed, evil, whatever but motive and intent are two separate things.

    bbm

    Again, you don't know this.
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    Re: Why did Sam do it?

    Post by ziggy on Sat Mar 13, 2010 7:45 pm

    So then I would hope that you are prepared to offer me more than just a "hunch" that there is some other evidence that we have not seen yet that will explain Sam's motive? RRrrrriiight.... Also, please point me in the direction of some conclusive evidence that would allow you to infer that Sam ever used PCP, was intoxicated by some substance when he committed these crimes, or has a history of psychiatric problems?

    You should not criticize what you perpetrate man.
    My theory is that Sam is like a lot of people in the news every day. They get a murderous rage on and they do heinous things. They aren't insane - they think someone else deserved it. They do snap because they are in a bad place mentally, but not to the degree required by law to be excused from criminal behavior.
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    Re: Why did Sam do it?

    Post by ziggy on Sat Mar 13, 2010 7:51 pm

    Paximus wrote:Yes but keep in mind that AE is arguing from the belief that there is more to all of this than we know and when it all finally comes out it will make better sense.

    A belief based on what? I don't mean to be a pill, but that sounds like it comes from the Jose Baez school of law "..it will all make sense when the facts come out at trial"...when there really is nothing that would explain the defendant's behavior and he knows it.

    I love defense attorneys because no matter how bad a person is, they dig for that one small speck of decency, or in some cases, they "hope" for it.

    I suspect that you are "hoping" that there is more at this point or your case is in trouble!!!
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    Percy
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    Re: Why did Sam do it?

    Post by Percy on Sat Mar 13, 2010 7:51 pm

    ziggy wrote:So then I would hope that you are prepared to offer me more than just a "hunch" that there is some other evidence that we have not seen yet that will explain Sam's motive? RRrrrriiight.... Also, please point me in the direction of some conclusive evidence that would allow you to infer that Sam ever used PCP, was intoxicated by some substance when he committed these crimes, or has a history of psychiatric problems?

    You should not criticize what you perpetrate man.
    My theory is that Sam is like a lot of people in the news every day. They get a murderous rage on and they do heinous things. They aren't insane - they think someone else deserved it. They do snap because they are in a bad place mentally, but not to the degree required by law to be excused from criminal behavior.

    Nah, it is admittedly nothing more than a hunch on my part but I really do think we havent seen the full deck of cards yet. There just has to be something missing here.

    IMO if the Jesus statement and music lyrics (which several people have now claimed he didnt even write himself) are let in, the state is setting itself up for appeal. Probably not a reversal put certainly credible grounds for an appeal.


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    Re: Why did Sam do it?

    Post by AndresEscobar on Sat Mar 13, 2010 7:53 pm

    ziggy wrote:So then I would hope that you are prepared to offer me more than just a "hunch" that there is some other evidence that we have not seen yet that will explain Sam's motive? RRrrrriiight.... Also, please point me in the direction of some conclusive evidence that would allow you to infer that Sam ever used PCP, was intoxicated by some substance when he committed these crimes, or has a history of psychiatric problems?

    You should not criticize what you perpetrate man.
    My theory is that Sam is like a lot of people in the news every day. They get a murderous rage on and they do heinous things. They aren't insane - they think someone else deserved it. They do snap because they are in a bad place mentally, but not to the degree required by law to be excused from criminal behavior.

    I'm criticizing your conclusory statements. You said that he was not insane, not by a long shot. But this is something that you don't know.

    Merely floating out that I am wondering if he used pcp is entirely different from saying "He did this because he was on PCP. Totally on PCP."
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    Re: Why did Sam do it?

    Post by Percy on Sat Mar 13, 2010 7:54 pm

    ziggy wrote:
    Paximus wrote:Yes but keep in mind that AE is arguing from the belief that there is more to all of this than we know and when it all finally comes out it will make better sense.

    A belief based on what? I don't mean to be a pill, but that sounds like it comes from the Jose Baez school of law "..it will all make sense when the facts come out at trial"...when there really is nothing that would explain the defendant's behavior and he knows it.

    I love defense attorneys because no matter how bad a person is, they dig for that one small speck of decency, or in some cases, they "hope" for it.

    I suspect that you are "hoping" that there is more at this point or your case is in trouble!!!

    Well thats just a discussion forum hunch Zigster, its certainly no legal strategy that I am trying to argue. I just have a feeling there is more to this than meets the eye.

    And yes I DO hope there is more to it because I admittedly am having a hard time seeing Sam do this for no real reason.


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    Re: Why did Sam do it?

    Post by ziggy on Sat Mar 13, 2010 8:10 pm

    I am merely floating my conclusion then. Thank you captain obvious for stating that I am not a mental health professional ! We would all be in deep doo doo if that were the case.

    My conclusion is my opinion just like your hunches or your "ideas" that you float about based (at this time) on a foundation as flimsy as my conclusions are based because you don't know...so what's the difference?

    Of course we are all just floating ideas and hunches around and in my case CONCLUSIONS (which I will bet you that I am right about when it comes to legal sanity) but I digress.

    I just find it frustrating that the defensive position to the known evidence and possibilites (based on either a news report, a local, or even an unsubstantited rumor, you know, things that you can point to and discuss as causations or very possivle theories) is the even more unsubstantiated "there must be something more we don't know" hunch. That's all.

    I've seen that technique floated and used against me in my own life...when the obvious is staring you right in the face and you even have hard evidence someone will try to make you doubt your position by telling you there is more to the story that you don't know. I don't let that knock me off my foundation of confidence; confidence that some things are just as they seem.
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    Re: Why did Sam do it?

    Post by Percy on Sat Mar 13, 2010 8:23 pm

    I dont even have a theory Zigster, you know I want to believe in people so it is very hard for me to imagine Sam doing this unless there was some reason for it and then you ask well what reason can there be to do something as horrific as that? Well no reason that I know of. The whole thing is just mind blowing to me. I know there are killers out there, sick fucking sociopathic people but I have studied Sam as much as I am able and I just dont see that in him, I am not sure what to think.


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    Re: Why did Sam do it?

    Post by ziggy on Sat Mar 13, 2010 8:35 pm

    Hell I hear ya! I love you and Andres for your abililty to see that there must be something there that makes it all "make sense" because it sucks to believe people are that bad or that unstable for no reason. I love that you believe in people.

    And I love it because I really don't and I know there must be a balance. I tend to see a very, very thin line between even me being a good person and me doing something horrible in a moment when I'm overcome. I've done bad things when angry, even violent things (to objects only). If a person is not aware of how to control their behavior or are lax in caring to do so - lacking in self discipline for example - I think they are more likely to act out on emotions.

    People with no boundaries who do whatever they want, whevever they want with no consequences and no training, guidance or teaching in the life skills of controlling their own behavior for a better result in life...those people are more likely to succumb to bad acts brought on by some sort of emotional trigger. That's just my humble and uprofessional but highly fucking rational opinion !!!!

    Sam may have been a nice guy, but his lack of any boundaries or self discipline may have contributed to his inability to control his "murderous feelings" and he acted out instead of walking away, as those with more experience in controling their behavior and difussing situations may be.


    Last edited by ziggy on Sat Mar 13, 2010 8:40 pm; edited 1 time in total
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    Re: Why did Sam do it?

    Post by the tapu on Sat Mar 13, 2010 8:38 pm

    What does it mean at all to say someone did something for no real reason?? How would that apply here? even when I say he's empty I don't mean he's a zombie. just stood up and did it.
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    Re: Why did Sam do it?

    Post by ziggy on Sat Mar 13, 2010 8:43 pm

    Crow wrote:What does it mean at all to say someone did something for no real reason?? How would that apply here? even when I say he's empty I don't mean he's a zombie. just stood up and did it.

    I guess maybe they are speaking of some justifiable reason, even if it was completely unreasonable to the everyday person. Something that made it a good reason in Sam's mind.

    I think some reasons could be:
    because he wanted to
    because he wanted to see what it was like
    because he wanted to be famous
    because he could
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    Re: Why did Sam do it?

    Post by Percy on Sat Mar 13, 2010 8:51 pm

    ziggy wrote:
    Crow wrote:What does it mean at all to say someone did something for no real reason?? How would that apply here? even when I say he's empty I don't mean he's a zombie. just stood up and did it.

    I guess maybe they are speaking of some justifiable reason, even if it was completely unreasonable to the everyday person. Something that made it a good reason in Sam's mind.

    I think some reasons could be:
    because he wanted to
    because he wanted to see what it was like
    because he wanted to be famous
    because he could

    I am unwilling to accept those as reasons in this case, in some cases yes, but I dont even believe Manson was that fucked up, in fact there is plenty of evidence to suggest he was a victim of mind control experimentation after having spent 70% of his life in institutions many of which later were verified as places where mind control and things like shock treatment were taking place. In otherwords he was created he wasnt just "that way."

    I need a real reason, Emma really pissed him off and hurt him, THAT DOESNT MAKE WHAT HE DID OK but it least explains why he did it. I cant accept he did it just to see what it was like. Thats too much for my brain I guess.


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    Re: Why did Sam do it?

    Post by blouAngel on Sat Mar 13, 2010 9:10 pm

    Paximus wrote:
    AndresEscobar wrote:
    .... when girls say bad things about me, I don't try to hurt them with a maul or hammer.


    Thats what needs to be hammered home by the defense, ...

    Nice choice of words there counselor.
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    Re: Why did Sam do it?

    Post by the tapu on Sat Mar 13, 2010 9:50 pm

    ziggy wrote:
    Crow wrote:What does it mean at all to say someone did something for no real reason?? How would that apply here? even when I say he's empty I don't mean he's a zombie. just stood up and did it.

    I guess maybe they are speaking of some justifiable reason, even if it was completely unreasonable to the everyday person. Something that made it a good reason in Sam's mind.

    I think some reasons could be:
    because he wanted to
    because he wanted to see what it was like
    because he wanted to be famous
    because he could


    ??? All of those except the famous are the same as saying no reason.
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    Re: Why did Sam do it?

    Post by ziggy on Sat Mar 13, 2010 10:24 pm

    Paximus wrote:
    ziggy wrote:
    Crow wrote:What does it mean at all to say someone did something for no real reason?? How would that apply here? even when I say he's empty I don't mean he's a zombie. just stood up and did it.

    I guess maybe they are speaking of some justifiable reason, even if it was completely unreasonable to the everyday person. Something that made it a good reason in Sam's mind.

    I think some reasons could be:
    because he wanted to
    because he wanted to see what it was like
    because he wanted to be famous
    because he could

    I am unwilling to accept those as reasons in this case, in some cases yes, but I dont even believe Manson was that fucked up, in fact there is plenty of evidence to suggest he was a victim of mind control experimentation after having spent 70% of his life in institutions many of which later were verified as places where mind control and things like shock treatment were taking place. In otherwords he was created he wasnt just "that way."

    I need a real reason, Emma really pissed him off and hurt him, THAT DOESNT MAKE WHAT HE DID OK but it least explains why he did it. I cant accept he did it just to see what it was like. Thats too much for my brain I guess.

    I'm sure there will be a reason that the prosecution will bring forward at trial. Could be a convergence of reasons like you suggest: the perfect storm.

    I think it's possible that in some cases where bad things are done, there really is no reason and yet we can never accept that has humans...we have to know why. Perhaps we even reject reasons that others accept (he was possessed). It's interesting to see what everyone's subjective thoughts are on the same possible "reasons".
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    Re: Why did Sam do it?

    Post by AndresEscobar on Sat Mar 13, 2010 11:31 pm

    ziggy wrote:Hell I hear ya! I love you and Andres for your abililty to see that there must be something there that makes it all "make sense" because it sucks to believe people are that bad or that unstable for no reason. I love that you believe in people.

    And I love it because I really don't and I know there must be a balance. I tend to see a very, very thin line between even me being a good person and me doing something horrible in a moment when I'm overcome. I've done bad things when angry, even violent things (to objects only). If a person is not aware of how to control their behavior or are lax in caring to do so - lacking in self discipline for example - I think they are more likely to act out on emotions.

    People with no boundaries who do whatever they want, whevever they want with no consequences and no training, guidance or teaching in the life skills of controlling their own behavior for a better result in life...those people are more likely to succumb to bad acts brought on by some sort of emotional trigger. That's just my humble and uprofessional but highly fucking rational opinion !!!!

    Sam may have been a nice guy, but his lack of any boundaries or self discipline may have contributed to his inability to control his "murderous feelings" and he acted out instead of walking away, as those with more experience in controling their behavior and difussing situations may be.

    I'm not sure it's believing in people. I just deal with people who commit crimes all day. And they all seem to have reasons. Reasons they think are good reasons regardless of whether or not they're good reasons. But, I digress. I think that we know very little about what happened and about Sam and I think that we need to know the whole story.

    But, I always enjoy our debates.
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    Re: Why did Sam do it?

    Post by piXy on Sat Mar 13, 2010 11:35 pm

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    Re: Why did Sam do it?

    Post by piXy on Sat Mar 13, 2010 11:36 pm

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    He speaks in these
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    Re: Why did Sam do it?

    Post by piXy on Sat Mar 13, 2010 11:37 pm

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    Re: Why did Sam do it?

    Post by piXy on Sat Mar 13, 2010 11:38 pm

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    AndresEscobar

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    Re: Why did Sam do it?

    Post by AndresEscobar on Sat Mar 13, 2010 11:46 pm

    re: youtube videos: he just seems so goofy.
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    piXy

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    Re: Why did Sam do it?

    Post by piXy on Sat Mar 13, 2010 11:48 pm

    AndresEscobar wrote:re: youtube videos: he just seems so goofy.

    indeed........
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    Percy
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    Re: Why did Sam do it?

    Post by Percy on Sat Mar 13, 2010 11:50 pm

    Thanks for those Pixy, appreciate that...


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    Re: Why did Sam do it?

    Post by piXy on Sun Mar 14, 2010 2:50 am

    i just noticed that he had signed into twitter on Sept 17.. the day before he was arrested..... proving he had access to a computer

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