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    You're Sam's criminal defense attorney--DEFEND HIM

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    AndresEscobar

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    Re: You're Sam's criminal defense attorney--DEFEND HIM

    Post by AndresEscobar on Mon Mar 22, 2010 11:43 pm

    ziggy wrote:
    Paximus wrote:
    ziggy wrote:
    Paximus wrote:I think the Pastor is upstairs, he comes, he knocks, no answer, he uses his key to get in and calls out for Debra, no answer, checks kitchen then goes upstairs to check her bedroom, Sam follows and whacks him in the bedroom.

    Ahhh, that's what I used to think BUT, then he would have fallen on the floor, see? And he was messed up pretty badly by what Atlantica said regarding his funeral and that, in turn, would have messed up the floor upstairs - but there was no replacement of flooring or carpet upstairs.


    That we know of. Could be hardwood parquet, a mop would clean it.


    You mean they have fake wood floors upstairs??? Read the auction flyer. I don't think that is mentioned.

    I have an area rug over the wooden floors in my bedroom.
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    Percy
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    Re: You're Sam's criminal defense attorney--DEFEND HIM

    Post by Percy on Mon Mar 22, 2010 11:43 pm

    ziggy wrote:
    Paximus wrote:
    ziggy wrote:
    Paximus wrote:I think the Pastor is upstairs, he comes, he knocks, no answer, he uses his key to get in and calls out for Debra, no answer, checks kitchen then goes upstairs to check her bedroom, Sam follows and whacks him in the bedroom.

    Ahhh, that's what I used to think BUT, then he would have fallen on the floor, see? And he was messed up pretty badly by what Atlantica said regarding his funeral and that, in turn, would have messed up the floor upstairs - but there was no replacement of flooring or carpet upstairs.


    That we know of. Could be hardwood parquet, a mop would clean it.

    You mean they have fake wood floors upstairs??? Read the auction flyer. I don't think that is mentioned.
    I have no idea, I have admittedly not kept up with that part of the case very well, I need to brush up but I do believe it was the Pastor upstairs, however you do make a good point about the flooring.


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    Percy
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    Re: You're Sam's criminal defense attorney--DEFEND HIM

    Post by Percy on Mon Mar 22, 2010 11:44 pm

    AndresEscobar wrote:
    ziggy wrote:
    Paximus wrote:
    ziggy wrote:
    Paximus wrote:I think the Pastor is upstairs, he comes, he knocks, no answer, he uses his key to get in and calls out for Debra, no answer, checks kitchen then goes upstairs to check her bedroom, Sam follows and whacks him in the bedroom.

    Ahhh, that's what I used to think BUT, then he would have fallen on the floor, see? And he was messed up pretty badly by what Atlantica said regarding his funeral and that, in turn, would have messed up the floor upstairs - but there was no replacement of flooring or carpet upstairs.


    That we know of. Could be hardwood parquet, a mop would clean it.


    You mean they have fake wood floors upstairs??? Read the auction flyer. I don't think that is mentioned.

    I have an area rug over the wooden floors in my bedroom.
    I tiled my entire house I freakin hate carpet, gets all dirty and raunchy looking and I always have had a no shoes on in the house policy but everyone bitches about it. Tile solved that issue.


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    dangrsmind

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    Re: You're Sam's criminal defense attorney--DEFEND HIM

    Post by dangrsmind on Mon Mar 22, 2010 11:46 pm

    The fact that the maul and/or hammer where likely NOT left sitting around, although of course we can;t know for sure, seems to indicate a decision process. There might be many weapons to choose from in the house, supposedly including a shotgun, but these are the ones he selected. If I was a betting man, I'd say he chose these weapons specifically.
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    AndresEscobar

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    Re: You're Sam's criminal defense attorney--DEFEND HIM

    Post by AndresEscobar on Mon Mar 22, 2010 11:47 pm

    dangrsmind wrote:The fact that the maul and/or hammer where likely NOT left sitting around, although of course we can;t know for sure, seems to indicate a decision process. There might be many weapons to choose from in the house, supposedly including a shotgun, but these are the ones he selected. If I was a betting man, I'd say he chose these weapons specifically.

    Sure. Which is why I think he was made aware of those weapons at some point.
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    ziggy

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    Re: You're Sam's criminal defense attorney--DEFEND HIM

    Post by ziggy on Mon Mar 22, 2010 11:47 pm

    AndresEscobar wrote:
    ziggy wrote:
    AndresEscobar wrote:
    ziggy wrote:
    AndresEscobar wrote:
    Paximus wrote:I could reasonably argue that a wood maul and ball peen hammer would have been kept in Emma's room since both are favored weapons of horrocore artists and fans.

    Also, I think he had to have at least been made aware of the maul at some point. Why would he pass many, many potential murder weapons in the house to go outside to a shed or something to search for something that he doesn't know is there?

    He is made aware of the maul by the mere fact he has been at the house for a week and certainly has been in the back yard during that time. It is very similar to an axe and he likes the wicked look of an axe per the Syko Sam photos. It's possible he just believes that is the ultimate weapon to use on a person, so when he thinks of killing, he thinks of the axe/maul.

    I can see him being aware of the maul more so than the hammer. Unless someone kept the hammer around for self defense? I know a few women who keep them in their rooms for that.

    So, he just has a sixth sense that makes him aware of the existence and location of mauls?
    No he has eyes. When he or they to out to the backyard to smoke, there it is. You think he never went into the backyard in the entire week he stayed there?

    So, the Maul is just laying outside in the backyard in your scenario? Not a good way to take care of your tools. Regardless, it seems doubtful to me that he scoped out a maul in the backyard then passed all sorts of murder weapons to get it.

    I bet, at the very least, he and Emma messed around with it at some point.
    You are so kinky under that straight laced suit look.
    All sorts of inferior murder weapons you mean. I am a woman and I'd keep the maul out at the wood pile probably stuck into a piece of wood or leaning beside the pile. I'm not going to go retrieve a maul from somewhere else and then bring it to the wood pile, chop and then take it back. I'm too practical for that! (you could insert lazy but don't) and it's not like a circular saw or some other fine tool that needs special care, not to me as a woman anyway. It just belongs out there with the wood.
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    Percy
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    Re: You're Sam's criminal defense attorney--DEFEND HIM

    Post by Percy on Mon Mar 22, 2010 11:51 pm

    Maybe Debra had Sam splittin wood to earn an extra few bucks for himself?


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    AndresEscobar

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    Re: You're Sam's criminal defense attorney--DEFEND HIM

    Post by AndresEscobar on Mon Mar 22, 2010 11:52 pm

    ziggy wrote:
    You are so kinky under that straight laced suit look.
    All sorts of inferior murder weapons you mean. I am a woman and I'd keep the maul out at the wood pile probably stuck into a piece of wood or leaning beside the pile. I'm not going to go retrieve a maul from somewhere else and then bring it to the wood pile, chop and then take it back. I'm too practical for that! (you could insert lazy but don't) and it's not like a circular saw or some other fine tool that needs special care, not to me as a woman anyway. It just belongs out there with the wood.

    I'm always kinky Zigz.

    I can see it being at the wood pile, but I don't think he was drawn to by some force. When I'm in others backyards I don't usually notice tools lying about, and if I do I certainly don't remember their placement at a later time. They're just kind of part of the background. Now, I can see Emma, Mel and him joking around with it at some point. That would make sense.
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    AndresEscobar

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    Re: You're Sam's criminal defense attorney--DEFEND HIM

    Post by AndresEscobar on Mon Mar 22, 2010 11:53 pm

    Paximus wrote:Maybe Debra had Sam splittin wood to earn an extra few bucks for himself?

    Sure, or maybe he was asked to do it and did it to get back in good graces.
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    ziggy

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    Re: You're Sam's criminal defense attorney--DEFEND HIM

    Post by ziggy on Mon Mar 22, 2010 11:53 pm

    Good thinking Paximus to the maximus. Why wouldn't a nice young man who has come to visit be asked to do a few helpful "guy" things?
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    ziggy

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    Re: You're Sam's criminal defense attorney--DEFEND HIM

    Post by ziggy on Mon Mar 22, 2010 11:58 pm

    Andres I think he would be drawn to it because of its significance in a lot of his imagery and horrorcore images in general...very big and menacing. I think he would definitely notice it if he were in the backyard and there it was - I can totally see his attraction to it and afterall, he did choose it as his weapon whether he picked up inside or out.
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    Percy
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    Re: You're Sam's criminal defense attorney--DEFEND HIM

    Post by Percy on Tue Mar 23, 2010 12:03 am

    As long as there are no witnesses to argue the contrary then I am going to argue, as Sam's lawyer, that the maul was kept in Emma's room, I am going to show the jury pictures of other horrocore fans with similar things in their room, and I will argue that it was simply a "weapon of opportunity" and not something he put any thought in to, he grabbed whatever was near in his fit of rage and started swinging. But keep in mind I have no moral quandry arguing that the sky is purple if it will save my client from a lethal injection, I will argue whatever is needed to accomplish that.


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    ziggy

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    Re: You're Sam's criminal defense attorney--DEFEND HIM

    Post by ziggy on Tue Mar 23, 2010 12:09 am

    There may be recent pictures of Emma's room from their visit; that may or may not show a maul in the room.
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    claudicici

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    Re: You're Sam's criminal defense attorney--DEFEND HIM

    Post by claudicici on Tue Mar 23, 2010 12:44 am

    Paximus wrote:
    ziggy wrote:Talk to me about Syniister or howeveryouspellit's testimony. If what Sam said to him was a confession, isn't that going to come into evidence? He will certainly be a witness. He was the first one to know of the homicides at the residence and alerted authorities right?
    He was the first to know as far as we know, I am now wondering if Sam may have sent pics even before he called Syn, Syn did not call the cops as far as I understand, he called Shrim and then Shrim called the cops,which puts Syn in a difficult situation where they can squeeze him and force him to testify against Sam being that he called a friend first before the authorities after learning a murder took place.


    All I know is that Sam said to Syn "I killed them all and I am in big trouble" There is also speculation now that he told Syn what took place would be very good for Wicked Intent Record promotion, since Sam had been working for WIR at the time as a promoter and Syn was the owner of WIR.
    sorry,I'm far behind,but pax how do you know for a fact that's what he said?...maybe he said "they're all dead " instead?
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    AndresEscobar

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    Re: You're Sam's criminal defense attorney--DEFEND HIM

    Post by AndresEscobar on Tue Mar 23, 2010 9:30 am

    ziggy wrote:Andres I think he would be drawn to it because of its significance in a lot of his imagery and horrorcore images in general...very big and menacing. I think he would definitely notice it if he were in the backyard and there it was - I can totally see his attraction to it and afterall, he did choose it as his weapon whether he picked up inside or out.

    Sure, but, here be doubt.

    I imagine the prosecution will argue something similar. Either it was out in the woodpile or in the shed. The "picking of the weapon" is a big (perhaps the biggest) part of proving premeditation. And a good lawyer can sit and say: this doesn't make sense because of X, Y, Z, Q, R, L, S, T, N and E. And then the ship may have so many holes it may not float.
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    AndresEscobar

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    Re: You're Sam's criminal defense attorney--DEFEND HIM

    Post by AndresEscobar on Tue Mar 23, 2010 9:34 am

    ziggy wrote:There may be recent pictures of Emma's room from their visit; that may or may not show a maul in the room.

    But pictures of a room that don't show something don't prove it wasn't there.

    Here's some pictures of a room. Notice there are no illegal guns in the pictures of this room. Therefore, there were no illegal guns in this room.

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    ziggy

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    Re: You're Sam's criminal defense attorney--DEFEND HIM

    Post by ziggy on Tue Mar 23, 2010 12:37 pm

    If you are going to say it was decor, it would help a jury to see that it was not dislayed. If you want to assert that they brought it in to mess around with, you might need some pics of them messing around with it for their "photo ops". Mere suggestions with nothing to back them up is creating a possibility, but not all possibilities will be seen as reasonable doubt...especially when it's known that is what he used to kill them. I would think some stronger evidence of what you suggest may be needed to create such doubt with these victims and this perp.
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    Percy
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    Re: You're Sam's criminal defense attorney--DEFEND HIM

    Post by Percy on Tue Mar 23, 2010 1:26 pm

    ziggy wrote:If you are going to say it was decor, it would help a jury to see that it was not dislayed. If you want to assert that they brought it in to mess around with, you might need some pics of them messing around with it for their "photo ops". Mere suggestions with nothing to back them up is creating a possibility, but not all possibilities will be seen as reasonable doubt...especially when it's known that is what he used to kill them. I would think some stronger evidence of what you suggest may be needed to create such doubt with these victims and this perp.
    This is were charm and a nice silk suit comes in.


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    ziggy

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    Re: You're Sam's criminal defense attorney--DEFEND HIM

    Post by ziggy on Tue Mar 23, 2010 2:37 pm

    Ha ha Pax -yes it's important that the jury likes the defense attorney. Did I ever tell you that I attended the David Westerfield trial in San Diego one day? You could see how much the jury did not like Steven Feldman (I think that was his name). His voice, his mannerisms - he would get too close to them and you could see in their body language they wanted him to go away. He was caustic. Thats' the stuff you don't get to see on TV. Very interesting.

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