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    Petition Hopes to Bring Justice To Homicide Case

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    Percy
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    Re: Petition Hopes to Bring Justice To Homicide Case

    Post by Percy on Thu Mar 25, 2010 4:04 am

    Heroine wrote:
    ScaryMary wrote:
    Heroine wrote:
    I hope this doesn't get long and drawn out, but here is why I personally would sign it.
    First of all I do believe that Sam indeed has a mental illness, I'm no doctor but it would appear that way to me. Having said that, I think it's hard for a majority of the population to show any compassion for Sam, and people like him, because they don't understand his disease. Noone understands or believes what they can't see, therefore it can't be real to them. I know from personal experience with panic attacks. They are very real and there is nothing you can do about it, for that period of time your brain has complete control over everything and that includes your reactions. It's the scariest thing, to know you are out of control.
    Mental illnesses can be learned and/or genetic, and are always chemically derived. You can NOT open up your brain and take out those excess chemicals and you can't always add more chemicals to stabilize the balance.
    I am by no means brushing off what Sam did as being okay, but I do think that killing him would be the wrong thing to do. We have no way of knowing what went through his head.
    Also I'd like to add that I agree with Debra, that there is a reason for the crimes people commit. In general there is a reason for the things people do and from some of what i learned in psychology, sociology, and my life is that a lot of it steers from childhood problems, especially problems dealing with broken homes. That shit really does fuck with people. I know, been there, done that.
    If that's what Debra would want then why not, right?


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    Heroine
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    Re: Petition Hopes to Bring Justice To Homicide Case

    Post by Heroine on Thu Mar 25, 2010 4:08 am


    ....oh this was supposed to go after Pax's LONG post.....haha! It'll
    work here too though....


    Last edited by Heroine on Thu Mar 25, 2010 4:09 am; edited 1 time in total
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    Percy
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    Re: Petition Hopes to Bring Justice To Homicide Case

    Post by Percy on Thu Mar 25, 2010 4:09 am

    One more thing Mary you mentioned sending Sam a Poe book, I own all his works and consider him one of the greatest literary artists of his time. What book did you send him?


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    ROCKDAWG

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    Re: Petition Hopes to Bring Justice To Homicide Case

    Post by ROCKDAWG on Thu Mar 25, 2010 8:22 am

    Heroine wrote:
    I hope this doesn't get long and drawn out, but here is why I personally would sign it.
    First of all I do believe that Sam indeed has a mental illness, I'm no doctor but it would appear that way to me. Having said that, I think it's hard for a majority of the population to show any compassion for Sam, and people like him, because they don't understand his disease. Noone understands or believes what they can't see, therefore it can't be real to them. I know from personal experience with panic attacks. They are very real and there is nothing you can do about it, for that period of time your brain has complete control over everything and that includes your reactions. It's the scariest thing, to know you are out of control.
    Mental illnesses can be learned and/or genetic, and are always chemically derived. You can NOT open up your brain and take out those excess chemicals and you can't always add more chemicals to stabilize the balance.
    I am by no means brushing off what Sam did as being okay, but I do think that killing him would be the wrong thing to do. We have no way of knowing what went through his head.
    Also I'd like to add that I agree with Debra, that there is a reason for the crimes people commit. In general there is a reason for the things people do and from some of what i learned in psychology, sociology, and my life is that a lot of it steers from childhood problems, especially problems dealing with broken homes. That shit really does fuck with people. I know, been there, done that.
    If that's what Debra would want then why not, right?
    Could it not be that Sam just has a mean streak ? Or that he is a bad person ? Everyone has problems. I for one had a very rough childhood. I get mad at people and some of these people that anger me probably need killing. However , I DONT DO IT !
    Take the Malvo case where those two guys were hiding in a trunk and blasting people. A good example of bad mean people. You can call it mental illness if you want. They need to be eliminated from society ( although not necessarily death penalty , just removed permanently from society ).
    Assuming that Sam is guilty ( and perhaps he is not ) of bashing FOUR peoples heads in ( as well as other body parts ) then he needs to be removed from society permanently.
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    dangrsmind

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    Re: Petition Hopes to Bring Justice To Homicide Case

    Post by dangrsmind on Thu Mar 25, 2010 8:58 am

    While, I oppose the death penalty I also recognize that it is a lot easier to take this position in the abstract. When it comes to the deaths of your own loved ones, a son or daughter, husband or wife, it probably isn't so easy.
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    claudicici

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    Re: Petition Hopes to Bring Justice To Homicide Case

    Post by claudicici on Thu Mar 25, 2010 9:16 am

    yes ,most definetely... if it was someone close to me the last thing I'd want is to wait for a long drawn out trial ....of course honestly just speaking from how i would emotionally feel i would like to get a hold of that person myself....
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    dangrsmind

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    Re: Petition Hopes to Bring Justice To Homicide Case

    Post by dangrsmind on Thu Mar 25, 2010 9:27 am

    ROCKDAWG wrote:
    Heroine wrote:
    I hope this doesn't get long and drawn out, but here is why I personally would sign it.
    First of all I do believe that Sam indeed has a mental illness, I'm no doctor but it would appear that way to me. Having said that, I think it's hard for a majority of the population to show any compassion for Sam, and people like him, because they don't understand his disease. Noone understands or believes what they can't see, therefore it can't be real to them. I know from personal experience with panic attacks. They are very real and there is nothing you can do about it, for that period of time your brain has complete control over everything and that includes your reactions. It's the scariest thing, to know you are out of control.
    Mental illnesses can be learned and/or genetic, and are always chemically derived. You can NOT open up your brain and take out those excess chemicals and you can't always add more chemicals to stabilize the balance.
    I am by no means brushing off what Sam did as being okay, but I do think that killing him would be the wrong thing to do. We have no way of knowing what went through his head.
    Also I'd like to add that I agree with Debra, that there is a reason for the crimes people commit. In general there is a reason for the things people do and from some of what i learned in psychology, sociology, and my life is that a lot of it steers from childhood problems, especially problems dealing with broken homes. That shit really does fuck with people. I know, been there, done that.
    If that's what Debra would want then why not, right?
    Could it not be that Sam just has a mean streak ? Or that he is a bad person ? Everyone has problems. I for one had a very rough childhood. I get mad at people and some of these people that anger me probably need killing. However , I DONT DO IT !
    Take the Malvo case where those two guys were hiding in a trunk and blasting people. A good example of bad mean people. You can call it mental illness if you want. They need to be eliminated from society ( although not necessarily death penalty , just removed permanently from society ).
    Assuming that Sam is guilty ( and perhaps he is not ) of bashing FOUR peoples heads in ( as well as other body parts ) then he needs to be removed from society permanently.

    I see three main problems with the death penalty in general.

    1. How do we prevent any innocent people from being executed accidentally?
    2. If we allow the state the right to execute citizens, how can we ensure that the state does not abuse this right?
    3. Do we really believe that execution is a "worse" punishment than life in prison? Why?

    These topics have not been addressed systematically or sufficiently in the literature IMO.
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    AndresEscobar

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    Re: Petition Hopes to Bring Justice To Homicide Case

    Post by AndresEscobar on Thu Mar 25, 2010 9:46 am

    Paximus wrote:
    SonicG wrote:Very laudable.
    One of the problems of the DP debate is that no one really knows if death is truly a penalty. Of course, HC Xtians believe that he is evil and will burn eternally in hell although some (many?) of those same people believe that he just needs to "allow Jesus into his heart" and he will be save and sent to heaven so how is that a punishment. It is impossible to reach any utilitarian conclusion with that sort of X factor in the mix...
    The other MAJOR PROBLEM is the number of people on death row who have been found to be completely innocent. Thats a major fucking problem.

    You heard about Skinner in TX, right? The death row inmate that was to be executed yesterday that has been denied DNA testing? The Supreme Court stayed his execution . . .


    Last edited by AndresEscobar on Thu Mar 25, 2010 10:54 am; edited 1 time in total
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    claudicici

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    Re: Petition Hopes to Bring Justice To Homicide Case

    Post by claudicici on Thu Mar 25, 2010 9:55 am

    .....my main problem with death penalty is simply that I don't understand it..
    how is that justice?..how is the person that executes that killing not guilty of murder as well?....what does it teach?
    ...to me it's saying it's ok to kill as long as you feel the other person deserves death
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    AndresEscobar

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    Re: Petition Hopes to Bring Justice To Homicide Case

    Post by AndresEscobar on Thu Mar 25, 2010 9:58 am

    ROCKDAWG wrote:
    Could it not be that Sam just has a mean streak ? Or that he is a bad person ? Everyone has problems. I for one had a very rough childhood. I get mad at people and some of these people that anger me probably need killing. However , I DONT DO IT !
    Take the Malvo case where those two guys were hiding in a trunk and blasting people. A good example of bad mean people. You can call it mental illness if you want. They need to be eliminated from society ( although not necessarily death penalty , just removed permanently from society ).
    Assuming that Sam is guilty ( and perhaps he is not ) of bashing FOUR peoples heads in ( as well as other body parts ) then he needs to be removed from society permanently.

    The Malvo case is distinguishable. Malvo was committing domestic terrorism. I believe that in instances of domestic terrorism, the person responsible has to be put to death for a lot of reasons. Prison security being the big one.
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    AndresEscobar

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    Re: Petition Hopes to Bring Justice To Homicide Case

    Post by AndresEscobar on Thu Mar 25, 2010 10:00 am

    dangrsmind wrote:

    I see three main problems with the death penalty in general.

    1. How do we prevent any innocent people from being executed accidentally?
    2. If we allow the state the right to execute citizens, how can we ensure that the state does not abuse this right?
    3. Do we really believe that execution is a "worse" punishment than life in prison? Why?

    These topics have not been addressed systematically or sufficiently in the literature IMO.

    The first two points are why I am against the death penalty in most cases. I have no opinion to offer on the third.

    If you support the death penalty you must insist that those put to death are guilty.

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    Re: Petition Hopes to Bring Justice To Homicide Case

    Post by Guest on Thu Mar 25, 2010 5:58 pm

    Here's the link to the petition if any of you would like to sign it:
    http://www.petitiononline.com/wwdd2010/petition.html
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    claudicici

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    Re: Petition Hopes to Bring Justice To Homicide Case

    Post by claudicici on Thu Mar 25, 2010 6:30 pm

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    Percy
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    Re: Petition Hopes to Bring Justice To Homicide Case

    Post by Percy on Thu Mar 25, 2010 6:53 pm

    Hancocked!


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    Re: Petition Hopes to Bring Justice To Homicide Case

    Post by Heroine on Thu Mar 25, 2010 7:02 pm

    Paximus wrote:Hancocked!
    Okay, I'm going to sign this, but I really hate the fact that you can see everyones info....haha! So much for keeping my name a secret eh?
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    Percy
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    Re: Petition Hopes to Bring Justice To Homicide Case

    Post by Percy on Thu Mar 25, 2010 8:41 pm

    Heroine wrote:
    Paximus wrote:Hancocked!
    Okay, I'm going to sign this, but I really hate the fact that you can see everyones info....haha! So much for keeping my name a secret eh?
    Use a fake name.


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    the tapu

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    Re: Petition Hopes to Bring Justice To Homicide Case

    Post by the tapu on Fri Mar 26, 2010 3:25 am

    SonicG wrote:Very laudable.
    One of the problems of the DP debate is that no one really knows if death is truly a penalty. Of course, HC Xtians believe that he is evil and will burn eternally in hell although some (many?) of those same people believe that he just needs to "allow Jesus into his heart" and he will be save and sent to heaven so how is that a punishment. It is impossible to reach any utilitarian conclusion with that sort of X factor in the mix...

    Hear some fuck beg for his life when he knows he's gonna be killed, and you'll know death is a penalty in any meaningful sense of the word. And I submit that most modern Xtians behave no differently in that scene. There's a distinct falling off of martyrs in the last centuries. In that respect, we could compare some Xtians to the horrorcore hypocrites.

    (I harbor no special disdain toward Christians. The "Just don't kill me" drive is understandable in anyone.)
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    Re: Petition Hopes to Bring Justice To Homicide Case

    Post by SonicG on Fri Mar 26, 2010 8:15 pm

    Crow wrote:
    SonicG wrote:Very laudable.
    One of the problems of the DP debate is that no one really knows if death is truly a penalty. Of course, HC Xtians believe that he is evil and will burn eternally in hell although some (many?) of those same people believe that he just needs to "allow Jesus into his heart" and he will be save and sent to heaven so how is that a punishment. It is impossible to reach any utilitarian conclusion with that sort of X factor in the mix...

    Hear some fuck beg for his life when he knows he's gonna be killed, and you'll know death is a penalty in any meaningful sense of the word. And I submit that most modern Xtians behave no differently in that scene. There's a distinct falling off of martyrs in the last centuries. In that respect, we could compare some Xtians to the horrorcore hypocrites.

    (I harbor no special disdain toward Christians. The "Just don't kill me" drive is understandable in anyone.)

    Not sure what you are getting at but I think most humans, and not just the "fucks", beg for their life if they are being threatened with death. No doubt, death is greatly feared and even more so in western cultures especially those with a greater protestant element but that doesn't void the fact that no one really knows how much of a punishment it is in an ultimate sense.

    Not many martyrs lately? I think we might be living in the golden age of religious martyrs in the form of suicide bombers.
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    the tapu

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    Re: Petition Hopes to Bring Justice To Homicide Case

    Post by the tapu on Fri Mar 26, 2010 9:08 pm

    By "some fuck," I meant "some guy." People in NJ say it a lot. Not so much elsewhere maybe.


    And I was trying to get at the idea that when you know death is coming, the suffering is so huge that whatever happens after is irrelevant. (I don't think anything happens after, so real irrelevant to me.) That suffering, stretched out over the period between sentencing and execution must be exquisite.

    And then I was referring to Xtian martyrs when I said I hadn't seen a lot around lately. It was in the context of how Xtians might be expected to accept serenely, even welcome death.
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    ROCKDAWG

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    Re: Petition Hopes to Bring Justice To Homicide Case

    Post by ROCKDAWG on Sun Mar 28, 2010 10:34 pm

    I haven't looked at the petition in a few days , but when I looked at it earlier in the week, it looks like lots of sams friends and new fans are signing and posting comments.I would think that would serve to make the petition look bad. kinda changeing it from the principle of not giving *anyone* the death penalty into a *dont kill sam* petition.

    Anyone else notice this and think the same thing ? Personally , I didnt sign it. It's up to the jury and the court to decide this and what the punishment will be.
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    piXy

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    Re: Petition Hopes to Bring Justice To Homicide Case

    Post by piXy on Sun Mar 28, 2010 10:57 pm

    ROCKDAWG wrote:I haven't looked at the petition in a few days , but when I looked at it earlier in the week, it looks like lots of sams friends and new fans are signing and posting comments.I would think that would serve to make the petition look bad. kinda changeing it from the principle of not giving *anyone* the death penalty into a *dont kill sam* petition.

    Anyone else notice this and think the same thing ? Personally , I didnt sign it. It's up to the jury and the court to decide this and what the punishment will be.

    I totally agree with you. i would not and will never sign this petition

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    Re: Petition Hopes to Bring Justice To Homicide Case

    Post by Guest on Mon Apr 12, 2010 6:29 pm

    Debra was a personal friend and I am one of the co founders of the petition. I know everyone is here for a different reason. I appreciate your interest in seeking the truth and understanding more about these horrific events.



    Ultimately it will likely be up to a jury / court to decide. We understand this. Public opinion is not a substitute for the legal process.



    How do you give voice to the dead though? If anyone thinks that the Commonwealth is pursuing the death penalty for Debra they are wrong. This is not what she believed in.



    Capital punishment seeks to fix what is unfixable. In Nov 09 Virginia executed the DC Sniper and ……everyone he murdered is still dead. There is no restorative justice for a homicide. No one wins. There are 5 lives lost however you look at it.



    I agree that Sam needs to be punished and permanently removed from society. Life in prison serves both of these needs.
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    the tapu

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    Re: Petition Hopes to Bring Justice To Homicide Case

    Post by the tapu on Mon Apr 12, 2010 7:20 pm

    Good post, Scott.

    Oh! I guess that was your only post. Good first post, then. Smile

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    ziggy

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    Re: Petition Hopes to Bring Justice To Homicide Case

    Post by ziggy on Mon Apr 12, 2010 10:19 pm

    Hi Scott and welcome. I completely understand your endeavor.

    I don't think justice is always intended solely for the victims, but also for the community, for the state, for the people and not just what one person wants. I also cannot be absolutely sure that Debra would agree after the fact - people have been known to change their minds when it becomes personal and without that absolute I think the way the commonwealth has voted to handle the punishments should probably rule. Otherwise we would have to dissect the wishes of each dead victim in order for it all to feel fair.

    In the case of the DC Sniper I personally believe we are better off with him dead because he can no longer marry or recruit others. It may have cost more to do it in the short term, but I don't bargain shop morality or plastic surgery and who knows how many we saved by limiting his ability to convince others of his beliefs in the long run.

    Again, the petition is a noble cause and if there are enough signatures and it works, then it is the process that determines what will happen. I don't begrudge anyone for being against the death penalty or working against it.

    My best to you and I am sorry for your loss.
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    claudicici

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    Re: Petition Hopes to Bring Justice To Homicide Case

    Post by claudicici on Tue Apr 13, 2010 1:18 am

    Welcome Scott and thank you so much for posting and for the petition as well...
    ...I'm also glad we get to know someone that actually knew Debra personally,someone here has mentioned before that she seemed to have been exactly the knd of person that would have posted right along with us if we were discussing another case...I'm really curious to find out more about Debra ,how long have you known her?

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