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    Phoebe Prince 15 kills self over bullying, 9 MA teens charged

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    ziggy

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    Re: Phoebe Prince 15 kills self over bullying, 9 MA teens charged

    Post by ziggy on Thu Apr 01, 2010 6:12 pm

    Because the school will be vicariously liable anyway - and either they have to give teachers more power, or fire the union member ones, or SOMETHING, but the way things are now is not working. If these teachers stand by and don't even REPORT this abuse, then I would sue them. sorry but i would. It's not that poor girl's problem or her family's that teacher's don't have enough power.
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    AndresEscobar

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    Re: Phoebe Prince 15 kills self over bullying, 9 MA teens charged

    Post by AndresEscobar on Thu Apr 01, 2010 10:04 pm

    Crow Fo Shizzle wrote:Because the school will be vicariously liable anyway - and either they have to give teachers more power, or fire the union member ones, or SOMETHING, but the way things are now is not working. If these teachers stand by and don't even REPORT this abuse, then I would sue them. sorry but i would. It's not that poor girl's problem or her family's that teacher's don't have enough power.

    Do we know that "these teachers" stood by and didn't report any abuse at all? Again, I doubt it. And what does firing union members have anything to do with anything? All teachers in the state of Mass belong to the union. Do you think that the union lobbies for the teachers to have less disciplinary power? No. And what power do think you they should give teachers? Power to suspend and expel? That doesn't make sense. That's why deans and other administrative personnel exist.

    Do we even know that this bullying occurred in the classroom? Are teachers supposed to roam the school like bullying vigilantes?

    Teachers have a difficult job. They're paid far less than they're worth. Holding them liable for things they can't control is adding to their plate.
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    Re: Phoebe Prince 15 kills self over bullying, 9 MA teens charged

    Post by ziggy on Fri Apr 02, 2010 2:03 pm

    The unions allow bad teachers to stay employed. IMO bad teachers are ones who would see this type of abuse and not notify someone. Teachers can't be fired Andres (well let's just say it is nearly impossible) - and that is the fault of the unions - they have screwed the system for years now and my point was that something has to be done about the state of the public schools and while it may not be directly related to this case, it is indirectly related as per the lack of attention to duty teachers should have. I agree - teachers are paid too little etc. but they need to pull their heads out of their asses (the good teachers) and get out of the union or start their own with different rules for God's sake.
    There were teachers who were aware of the abuse and did nothing - you can find these facts in the articles. They notified AFTER the girl killed herself.

    I think they should give teachers back the power they used to have. Deans and other administrators are puppets and they don't have a freaking clue what goes on day to day. Teachers see a lot - what.... all these good teachers you speak about just bury their heads in their books in their own classrooms and don't know wtf is going on unless they, "roam the school like bullying vigilantes"...give me a break. They don't need to go to your exaggerated extent to be aware of what's going on.

    The reason they can't control things is by their own decision to just sit back and let someone else rule their profession. We shouldn't decide whether or not to hold someone liable when a death is involved just because we feel sorry for them.
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    Re: Phoebe Prince 15 kills self over bullying, 9 MA teens charged

    Post by ziggy on Fri Apr 02, 2010 2:06 pm

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    AndresEscobar

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    Re: Phoebe Prince 15 kills self over bullying, 9 MA teens charged

    Post by AndresEscobar on Fri Apr 02, 2010 6:38 pm

    I'm not getting into a discussion of unions. However, you're incorrect in blaming them as why it's difficult to fire teachers. Being in a union has nothing to do with the difficulty of firing teachers. That's from tenure. Tenure takes about 5 years to get now a days.

    Also, there are good teachers in unions. Most states are union security states, which means everyone in a faculty has to be in a union. They don't have a choice. They can't leave the union.

    It apparent you don't understand the dichotomy between administration and teacher in the education world. Administration runs the show. They are the employers. Teachers are employees. They do what they're told by the administration and report to the administration. Also, what "power" are you talking about? The power to suspend and expel? Teachers never had that power.

    Here's something interesting: I had lunch with my roommate from college today. He's a high school social studies teacher. I quizzed him about the bullying issue. Apparently, not only are teachers trained in recognizing and dealing with bullying, but they also are required to take time out of teaching core curriculum to teach dispute resolution and anti-bullying tactics, what to do if bullied, etc.

    btw, from the article you just linked:

    At least four students and two faculty members intervened to try to
    stop it or report it to administrators, she said.

    The teachers are not liable for this girl killing herself.
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    Kay

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    Re: Phoebe Prince 15 kills self over bullying, 9 MA teens charged

    Post by Kay on Sat Apr 03, 2010 9:25 pm

    I think a lot of time teachers give up because they get no where with administration. Locally, referrals for bad behavior count against the school. So teacher are discouraged from making referrals to the office. They're supposed to "handle it" and but their powers are limited. So what are they supposed to do?

    I have read numerous times that after this girl died, the school administration claimed they had no idea of her being bullied. However, it has since been brought out that teachers did report it to administration and teachers did try to do something about the bullying, the girl's mother complained to school administration and even other students reported it. There is the one instance of a staff member/teacher witnessing the bullying and doing absolutely nothing. I think that specific staff person should be disciplined. I think the school administration should be disciplined too. Maybe that will be in the form of being named a defendant in a lawsuit.
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    Kay

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    Re: Phoebe Prince 15 kills self over bullying, 9 MA teens charged

    Post by Kay on Thu Apr 15, 2010 9:10 pm

    Accused in Phoebe case now victims of bullying



    By Allison Bray
    Friday April 09 2010



    THE American teenagers accused of bullying Phoebe Prince
    before she took her own life have become victims of bullies themselves,
    it emerged yesterday.As three of the accused entered not guilty
    pleas at a juvenile court in Massachusetts, a Boston newspaper reported
    that they had become targets of vicious taunts on the internet.The
    'Boston Herald' reported that anonymous 'cyber vigilantes' had created
    bogus websites under the names of the accused.The sites include a
    link to newspaper reports of the 15-year-old Irish girl's suicide
    following a vicious campaign of bullying and harassment by schoolmates
    at South Hadley High School in Massachusetts.The sites --
    registered on March 30 to an address in California -- feature violent
    threats and obscenities in anonymous comments from bloggers.The
    newspaper also reported that a lawyer representing one of the accused
    had received numerous threats, while a local woman who was wrongly
    identified as the mother of the same accused was forced to leave home
    for a week due to harassment from local residents.The newspaper's
    competitor, 'The Boston Globe', also reported that the whistleblower
    who alleged that a high-school clique had effectively bullied the pretty
    student to the grave was also being harassed by locals.Darby
    O'Brien claimed he had been subjected to threats by local residents and
    was almost hit by a car driven at him deliberately by local teenagers
    when he was out walking his dog.Meanwhile, lawyers representing
    Ashley Longe (16), Flannery Mullins (16), and Sharon Chanon Velazquez
    (16), of South Hadley, Massachusetts, entered not guilty pleas on their
    behalf during a brief appearance at the Franklin-Hamphire court
    yesterday morning.None of the accused appeared in court. They are
    due to sign on at the local probation department by 3pm today.They
    were ordered to stay away from the Prince family and to submit to
    booking procedures by next Wednesday.They are all charged as
    youthful offenders with violation of civil rights, criminal harassment
    and disturbing a school assembly. Ms Mullins and Ms Velazquez are also
    charged with stalking, while Ms Longe has been charged with assault
    using a dangerous weapon.Three other teens, including high-school
    football star Sean Mulveyhill (17), Austin Renaud (18) and Kayla Narey
    (17), pleaded not guilty on Tuesday to various charges in connection
    with bullying the former Co Clare schoolgirl. The charges included
    statutory rape.Mr Mulveyhill was charged with statutory rape,
    violation of civil rights resulting in bodily injury, criminal
    harassment and disturbance of a school assembly. Ms Narey was charged
    with violation of civil rights resulting in bodily injury, criminal
    harassment and disturbance of a school assembly.Mr Renaud was
    also charged with statutory rape.The case has made headlines
    around the world after Ms Prince was found hanged at her South Hadley
    home on January 14, just five months after she had emigrated to the US
    with her family from Fanore, Co Clare.It is alleged that the
    clique of students -- which included popular and high-achieving pupils
    -- relentlessly bullied the Irish girl to the point where she eventually
    took her own life.
    - Allison Bray

    Irish Independent
    http://www.independent.ie/national-news/accused-in-phoebe-case-now-victims-of-bullying-2131176.html
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    AndresEscobar

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    Re: Phoebe Prince 15 kills self over bullying, 9 MA teens charged

    Post by AndresEscobar on Sat Apr 17, 2010 9:41 am

    Quick. Get the DA on the line. Charge those people with bullying the bullies, the bullies parents, and the bullies lawyer.
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    Kay

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    Re: Phoebe Prince 15 kills self over bullying, 9 MA teens charged

    Post by Kay on Sat Apr 17, 2010 3:24 pm

    I think it is a perfect natural consequence. Wonder how they all feel being on the receiving end?
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    Re: Phoebe Prince 15 kills self over bullying, 9 MA teens charged

    Post by AndresEscobar on Sat Apr 17, 2010 4:47 pm

    Kay wrote:I think it is a perfect natural consequence. Wonder how they all feel being on the receiving end?

    Even the lawyer, who is just doing his job? It's a perfect natural consequence for him?

    If bullying is wrong, then it is wrong across the board. If bullying is illegal, then anyone who bullies should be subject to those laws. It doesn't matter who receives the bullying. It's the act that gives rise to the criminality, not the recipient.
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    Re: Phoebe Prince 15 kills self over bullying, 9 MA teens charged

    Post by Percy on Sat Apr 17, 2010 7:08 pm

    Good god those idiots at Websleuths are completely batshit crazy. If I even attempt to discuss this with them I will be banned immediately, you cannot reason with their mob mentality over there. Some of them are calling for these kids to be sodomized and raped as punishment, what kind of sick fucking people are they?


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    Re: Phoebe Prince 15 kills self over bullying, 9 MA teens charged

    Post by AndresEscobar on Sat Apr 17, 2010 7:46 pm

    Gonzo wrote:Good god those idiots at Websleuths are completely batshit crazy. If I even attempt to discuss this with them I will be banned immediately, you cannot reason with their mob mentality over there. Some of them are calling for these kids to be sodomized and raped as punishment, what kind of sick fucking people are they?

    They're idiots. They're sick, sad human beings. Most sit on the computer all day. Probably don't work. Have very little education and what education they received they've probably never put to use. They're angry that their life isn't how they planned and they want to project that anger onto something else. And they have FoxNews and Nancy Grace on in the background and listen to talking heads who have a perceived position of authority say ridiculously ignorant things for ratings and they parrot that.

    I was thinking about this today as I went running. I think the inability of a certain percentage of the population to think rationally and logically (in this case when it comes crime and those accused of crimes, but I also mean generally in the US) speaks directly to the failure of our education system in the US. Specifically, the undervaluing of education.

    Groups of certain-minded people want to ridicule the educated in favor of screaming and yelling "tellin' it like it is" populist bullshit. At least our legal system was designed by educated, intelligent people who resisted ignorant populist rhetoric and instead sided with logic and reason.
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    claudicici

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    Re: Phoebe Prince 15 kills self over bullying, 9 MA teens charged

    Post by claudicici on Sat Apr 17, 2010 8:14 pm

    I think it's the mentality within the schools that causes bullying in the first place...it's the athletes,the "untouchables",the popular kids that single out someone they perceive as weaker ,more sensistive and more vulnerable...the athlete kids feel entitlet to act that way ,it's the very system that makes them feel they can....so how unfair is it to now charge them with serious crimes when the way they were acting was encouraged in the first place?...as long as competition and winning is the main focus in schools instead of learning there's going to be bullying imo
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    Re: Phoebe Prince 15 kills self over bullying, 9 MA teens charged

    Post by Percy on Sat Apr 17, 2010 8:18 pm

    AndresEscobar wrote:
    Gonzo wrote:Good god those idiots at Websleuths are completely batshit crazy. If I even attempt to discuss this with them I will be banned immediately, you cannot reason with their mob mentality over there. Some of them are calling for these kids to be sodomized and raped as punishment, what kind of sick fucking people are they?

    They're idiots. They're sick, sad human beings. Most sit on the computer all day. Probably don't work. Have very little education and what education they received they've probably never put to use. They're angry that their life isn't how they planned and they want to project that anger onto something else. And they have FoxNews and Nancy Grace on in the background and listen to talking heads who have a perceived position of authority say ridiculously ignorant things for ratings and they parrot that.

    I was thinking about this today as I went running. I think the inability of a certain percentage of the population to think rationally and logically (in this case when it comes crime and those accused of crimes, but I also mean generally in the US) speaks directly to the failure of our education system in the US. Specifically, the undervaluing of education.

    Groups of certain-minded people want to ridicule the educated in favor of screaming and yelling "tellin' it like it is" populist bullshit. At least our legal system was designed by educated, intelligent people who resisted ignorant populist rhetoric and instead sided with logic and reason.


    Thats a well done profile of the average WSer.


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    AndresEscobar

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    Re: Phoebe Prince 15 kills self over bullying, 9 MA teens charged

    Post by AndresEscobar on Sat Apr 17, 2010 9:25 pm

    claudicici wrote:I think it's the mentality within the schools that causes bullying in the first place...it's the athletes,the "untouchables",the popular kids that single out someone they perceive as weaker ,more sensistive and more vulnerable...the athlete kids feel entitlet to act that way ,it's the very system that makes them feel they can....so how unfair is it to now charge them with serious crimes when the way they were acting was encouraged in the first place?...as long as competition and winning is the main focus in schools instead of learning there's going to be bullying imo

    I think there will always be bullying. I was bullied in school. I just learned to deal with it.

    Hell, bullying isn't just a problem in schools. It' happens everywhere. I see it in my profession all the time.
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    Re: Phoebe Prince 15 kills self over bullying, 9 MA teens charged

    Post by Kay on Sat Apr 17, 2010 11:17 pm

    AndresEscobar wrote:
    Kay wrote:I think it is a perfect natural consequence. Wonder how they all feel being on the receiving end?

    Even the lawyer, who is just doing his job? It's a perfect natural consequence for him?

    If bullying is wrong, then it is wrong across the board. If bullying is illegal, then anyone who bullies should be subject to those laws. It doesn't matter who receives the bullying. It's the act that gives rise to the criminality, not the recipient.

    Sometimes consequences include illegal acts by others. If crimes are being committed, by all means prosecute everyone committing the crimes. While all bullying is morally wrong, IMO, not all bullying is illegal. I think what that group of kids did to Phoebe rose to the level of criminals acts. It certainly seems the actions described in this article are illegal acts as well. I just can't muster up any sympathy for the group of kids who are now on the receiving end. I think they got a lot of nerve if they're complaining about it.
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    Kay

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    Re: Phoebe Prince 15 kills self over bullying, 9 MA teens charged

    Post by Kay on Sat Apr 17, 2010 11:22 pm

    AndresEscobar wrote:
    Kay wrote:I think it is a perfect natural consequence. Wonder how they all feel being on the receiving end?

    Even the lawyer, who is just doing his job? It's a perfect natural consequence for him?

    I missed that part in the article. Attorneys are making my life miserable right now (workload with wait-until-the-last-minute-deadlines) but I don't think they deserved to be threatened because of the clients they represent. Beaten by their employees maybe, but not threatened by others. (and that last part is just a joke. kind of.)
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    Re: Phoebe Prince 15 kills self over bullying, 9 MA teens charged

    Post by AndresEscobar on Sat Apr 17, 2010 11:33 pm

    Kay wrote:
    AndresEscobar wrote:
    Kay wrote:I think it is a perfect natural consequence. Wonder how they all feel being on the receiving end?

    Even the lawyer, who is just doing his job? It's a perfect natural consequence for him?

    I missed that part in the article. Attorneys are making my life miserable right now (workload with wait-until-the-last-minute-deadlines) but I don't think they deserved to be threatened because of the clients they represent. Beaten by their employees maybe, but not threatened by others. (and that last part is just a joke. kind of.)

    It's a hard job. I'm not sure how to put into words how much I appreciate my support. I try to let them know as often as possible.
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    Re: Phoebe Prince 15 kills self over bullying, 9 MA teens charged

    Post by claudicici on Sun Apr 18, 2010 1:21 am

    Gonzo wrote:
    AndresEscobar wrote:
    Gonzo wrote:Good god those idiots at Websleuths are completely batshit crazy. If I even attempt to discuss this with them I will be banned immediately, you cannot reason with their mob mentality over there. Some of them are calling for these kids to be sodomized and raped as punishment, what kind of sick fucking people are they?

    They're idiots. They're sick, sad human beings. Most sit on the computer all day. Probably don't work. Have very little education and what education they received they've probably never put to use. They're angry that their life isn't how they planned and they want to project that anger onto something else. And they have FoxNews and Nancy Grace on in the background and listen to talking heads who have a perceived position of authority say ridiculously ignorant things for ratings and they parrot that.

    I was thinking about this today as I went running. I think the inability of a certain percentage of the population to think rationally and logically (in this case when it comes crime and those accused of crimes, but I also mean generally in the US) speaks directly to the failure of our education system in the US. Specifically, the undervaluing of education.

    Groups of certain-minded people want to ridicule the educated in favor of screaming and yelling "tellin' it like it is" populist bullshit. At least our legal system was designed by educated, intelligent people who resisted ignorant populist rhetoric and instead sided with logic and reason.


    Thats a well done profile of the average WSer.
    ....in defense of the WSers,I think the average WSer 's are middle aged women who love their children/grandchildren and a lot of them were victims or had family members that were victims of crime therefore I can emotionally understand their "fry them" frenzies even though I think it's very wrong.
    That's why I respect people like Scott and his wife even more.They were directly affected by a brutal crime and lost a good friend but instead of getting carried away by anger they came up with the petition...
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    ziggy

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    Re: Phoebe Prince 15 kills self over bullying, 9 MA teens charged

    Post by ziggy on Sun Apr 18, 2010 4:05 am

    H mmm yeah in further defense it's hard to hear about a man burning his 3 year old little girl and then beating her to death and only getting 18 years...day after day the horrific things I read there...enought to make one heartsick - and those who have been touched by violence, abuse and unfairness are bound to have a more severe reaction than someone like me (and yet I am very affected by it). I have to cut them a break. And that is a HUGE generalization btw. If anyone else made such a broad sweeping statement we would surely be made aware of it.
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    Re: Phoebe Prince 15 kills self over bullying, 9 MA teens charged

    Post by the tapu on Sun Apr 18, 2010 7:46 am

    I think Claudi, in particular there, has her finger on the pulse of the WS crowd, though certainly other "types" make up the balance. Ziggy has a point, too, that many of them are focused on mild sentencing for horrific crimes. To add to the picture, I suggest that people on WS are often speaking hyperbolically; there's a certain amount of "swagger." If put in a real situation, they would come down closer to our present forms of legal punishment than to the draconian measures they bluster about on line.



    JMHO, as they say so much over there. Smile
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    Re: Phoebe Prince 15 kills self over bullying, 9 MA teens charged

    Post by Percy on Sun Apr 18, 2010 12:30 pm

    ziggy wrote:H mmm yeah in further defense it's hard to hear about a man burning his 3 year old little girl and then beating her to death and only getting 18 years...day after day the horrific things I read there...enought to make one heartsick - and those who have been touched by violence, abuse and unfairness are bound to have a more severe reaction than someone like me (and yet I am very affected by it). I have to cut them a break. And that is a HUGE generalization btw. If anyone else made such a broad sweeping statement we would surely be made aware of it.


    Yea but these people are calling for their heads before they have even had a day in court and in some instances before they have even been charged. If the facts are there and a person is found guilty, have at it, express yourself, no problem, but what I see most often on WS is a story breaking and before an investigation has even been conducted you have about 80% of the people in any given thread calling for them to executed, taken out and raped and sodomized etc. Completely ridiculous, I think Andres is closer to be honest.

    Then you have the idiots who like to joke about fucking PRISON RAPE as in "Oh he will get his from Bubba in prison and he deserves it, I hope they teach him a lesson."


    Let me be clear here, rape is NEVER ok. Prison rape included.


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    Re: Phoebe Prince 15 kills self over bullying, 9 MA teens charged

    Post by AndresEscobar on Sun Apr 18, 2010 12:41 pm

    ziggy wrote:H mmm yeah in further defense it's hard to hear about a man burning his 3 year old little girl and then beating her to death and only getting 18 years...day after day the horrific things I read there...enought to make one heartsick - and those who have been touched by violence, abuse and unfairness are bound to have a more severe reaction than someone like me (and yet I am very affected by it). I have to cut them a break. And that is a HUGE generalization btw. If anyone else made such a broad sweeping statement we would surely be made aware of it.

    I don't think it's an over generalization. They're on their computers all day, and therefor probably aren't working. They take joy in the suffering of other people, which is sick and sad to me. Just some of the stuff I read in the Elizabeth Olten/ Alyssa Bustamante thread was enough to figure that out. Here are middle aged adults posting fantasies about what they hope was happening to a 15 year- old girl.

    That they are under educated is apparent from their posts. And parroting Nancy Grace/ Fox News bs is apparent from their posts too. And, I don't understand being outraged over "mild sentencing" or saying someone "only got" a certain number of years for a crime. The complex nature in which sentences are levied is a difficult and intricate process. Many highly trained professions are responsible for developing a punishment based on constitutional issues, state law issues, and the highly sensitive issues of the case. Things that the average person screaming on the internet doesn't know.
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    Re: Phoebe Prince 15 kills self over bullying, 9 MA teens charged

    Post by Percy on Sun Apr 18, 2010 1:40 pm

    I am certainly not and I am sure Andres is not, talking about everyone at WS but if you spend any time there you certainly know WHO we ARE talking about and I would say they do make up the MAJORITY of the place.


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    Re: Phoebe Prince 15 kills self over bullying, 9 MA teens charged

    Post by AndresEscobar on Sun Apr 18, 2010 1:55 pm

    Gonzo wrote:

    Yea but these people are calling for their heads before they have even had a day in court and in some instances before they have even been charged. If the facts are there and a person is found guilty, have at it, express yourself, no problem, but what I see most often on WS is a story breaking and before an investigation has even been conducted you have about 80% of the people in any given thread calling for them to executed, taken out and raped and sodomized etc. Completely ridiculous, I think Andres is closer to be honest.

    Then you have the idiots who like to joke about fucking PRISON RAPE as in "Oh he will get his from Bubba in prison and he deserves it, I hope they teach him a lesson."


    Let me be clear here, rape is NEVER ok. Prison rape included.

    Exactly. I think Tapu basically hit it on the head when she said it's posturing. It doesn't make it any less irresponsible or disgusting but I think the majority of them are trying to show off how "extreme" their hatred of (people they think are) criminals is. The jail room fantasies, the execution fantasies, it's sociopathic. It's groupthink. It's mob mentality. And it leads to injustices equivalent to the causes they're rallying against.

    Now in my profession not only do I have to worry about my clients being prone to violence, but I have to worry that my name and contact info are going to be posted on a website by some sociopath? Because I've been assigned to a case? Luckily, I've never been involved in a case interesting enough to trigger these weirdos. But, when I do, the moment I get a phone call or emails or have people showing up to my office wearing WS t-shirts, I'm getting a restraining order. And that's what the lawyers representing these teenagers should do with these people who are harassing them. Immediately.

    If you ever get a chance to talk to a DA sometime ask them whether they think internet sleuths helped or hurt the Casey Anthony case. There's a lot of back patting going on in WS. But they probably did as much to obstruct the investigation as they did to help it.

    Pax, when you found that information about the Websleuths admin who had been a registered sex offender a lot of stuff about that place started to make sense. I wonder how much of that vitriol is self loathing.

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