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    Jonbenet Ramsey Case

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    ziggy

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    Re: Jonbenet Ramsey Case

    Post by ziggy on Tue Apr 27, 2010 5:14 am

    Women like us don't sweat, we simply glow Smile

    Percy in case you never noticed, the Whites are both a little odd. My best guess is that the massive attention that followed them because of their relationship with the Ramseys freaked them out and it was every man for himself. I can imagine they were slightly traumatized by it all - JonBenet was at their house that night, they were there when she was found etc. It was a bizarre circus they were all thrown into and how people react is just different depending on their coping skills and how they were raised and what life experiences they've had. I also think their little girl had to live in JB's shadow and on some level they resented JonBenet too and maybe they felt guilt over that. Hard to tell...people are complicated.
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    Re: Jonbenet Ramsey Case

    Post by ziggy on Tue Apr 27, 2010 5:26 am

    From the autopsy - "The proximal portion of the small intestine contains fragmented pieces of yellow to light green-tan apparent vegetable or fruit material which may represent fragments of pineapple."

    Yes there has been much to do about the pineapple; I don't think it's related to the murder frankly.

    A bowl of pineapple that was on the table in the breakfast room was the apparent source - both Patsy and Burke left prints on the bowl but JB's prints were not.

    Dr. Doberson and others have said it is possible that she ate it - like grabbed a few pieces on the run before they went to the White's for dinner that night.
    Some say the killer fed it to her.
    If she did have pineapple, why would Patsy lie about that? Why would she be so insistant that she didn't know anything about it and that that is not the way she would have set it out - insisting that she did not put the bowl there? Seems more logical to me that Burke did and JonBenet grabbed some as a quick snack shortly before they left. It's Christmas and there is much to do. Patsy would not have noticed. Nobody would really. Dr. Doberson said there was really no for sure way to tell when she ate it and that she could have eaten it before leaving the house...it was in the intestine, not the stomach.
    When kids throw up, they throw up what's in their stomach, not what is in their intestines and sometimes even hours after a meal I have thrown up undigested food from my stomach; so again it is really hard to say when she ate it so I'm not convinced it has anything to do with anything.

    I don't want to overshare, but I used to be bulemic so I am practically an expert on throwing up and how long you have to do so and what you can and can't throw up and stomach contents are import for TOD but intenstine content rarely is.

    BTW no matter how much later you eat chocolate, it will be the last to come up - even hours later. Certain foods are treated differently in our system and that can vary from person to person.
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    claudicici

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    Re: Jonbenet Ramsey Case

    Post by claudicici on Tue Apr 27, 2010 6:01 am

    "If she did have pineapple, why would Patsy lie about that? Why would she be so insistant that she didn't know anything about it and that that is not the way she would have set it out - insisting that she did not put the bowl there? Seems more logical to me that Burke did and JonBenet grabbed some as a quick snack shortly before they left.".....exactly,or after they returned...what's significant to me is that both Mr. & Mrs. Ramsey denied the pineapple if I remember well they even denied having pineapple in the house,I think they said if they buy it ,they buy a whole pineapple so it would have been hard for the kids to cut it up as a quick snack by themselves...the only reason I could see why they would deny it is because it doesn't fit with the claim that JonBenet was asleep when they got home ....
    I thought it was an intruder for years and years,I always suspected Mr. & Mrs. Santa Claus,but the pineapple is one of the things that made me change my mind...
    ....what do you think about the american doll ? ...that's another thing I can't explain if the Ramsey's are innocent...
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    the tapu

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    Re: Jonbenet Ramsey Case

    Post by the tapu on Tue Apr 27, 2010 6:38 am

    My contribution: Yeah, Ziggy, my body is like that, too. It's not until I wear a shirt 2-3 times at least that lovers and children ask to sleep with it like a blankie.

    I probably would have put the same clothes back on in P's situation, precisely because they were the most handy.
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    Re: Jonbenet Ramsey Case

    Post by claudicici on Tue Apr 27, 2010 8:51 am

    lol,you guys are unbelievable...I rest my case....I change clothes like 3 times a day....
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    Percy
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    Re: Jonbenet Ramsey Case

    Post by Percy on Tue Apr 27, 2010 12:30 pm

    claudicici wrote:lol,you guys are unbelievable...I rest my case....I change clothes like 3 times a day....
    Well I am with you here, I absolutely do not see Patsy Ramsey putting on the same outfit for a plane ride to Michigan, she has a closet full of designer clothes, it makes no sense at all.


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    ziggy

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    Re: Jonbenet Ramsey Case

    Post by ziggy on Tue Apr 27, 2010 1:52 pm

    Hey, women have a lot of fancy clothes for occassions and they don't necessarily enjoy wearing them or feel comfortable in them. A closet full of designer clothes makes no sense - because for one, you don't open your designer clothes closet for a) a home party or b) a private plane ride. What you do is you wear the most comfortable "favorites" that are festive, yet slightly casual and most importantly comfortable for the many reasons we have like feel of the fabric, slimming quality, no tight waistbands, warm enough or cool enough and the right colors. She chose these clothes for a house party on a holiday because she liked wearing them not because she was out to impress anyone sheeesh. For that same reason, she thought them just fine to travel in. I never used to wear jeans for flying - always slacks and always looked one step above casual but not too dressy.

    NON ISSUE.
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    Re: Jonbenet Ramsey Case

    Post by ziggy on Tue Apr 27, 2010 1:59 pm

    Claudi - were you able to ascertain whether that doll was ordered, back ordered or part of a subscription order; doll of the month type of thing? How are you certain any duct tape or black tape came from the doll?
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    Re: Jonbenet Ramsey Case

    Post by tapu on Tue Apr 27, 2010 3:12 pm

    IDI. Because if it had been a Ramsey, it would already have been proven.
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    Re: Jonbenet Ramsey Case

    Post by ziggy on Tue Apr 27, 2010 3:27 pm

    I hope I never get in trouble and someone on the jury lets my fate lie in whether or not I would wear my designer clothes on a private early morning plane trip or the ones from the night before, cuz it would be the latter and I would be screwed!! Although I would look smashing regardless...sometimes (with mineral makeup especially) I can roll out of bed, remove the sleepy, dab rice paper on the face and dust with powder and the make up from the night before still looks fresh. Back comb the crown to cover up the bed head, finger comb the hair and spray with some nice shine spray...some yummy body lotion and I bet you couldn't tell I had not showered. Put on the same clothes I wore the night before at home (no cigarette smoke or food odors from restaurants) and viola! It is HOW TO GET READY FAST so that you can get that extra hour of sleep.
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    Re: Jonbenet Ramsey Case

    Post by AndresEscobar on Tue Apr 27, 2010 3:30 pm

    I have very little to say about this case. When it happened, I was young enough to believe what police, experts, analysts, and news reporters said about crimes. So at the time I thought RDI. Now, I know better.

    That said, a few things: first, Ramsey's were certainly suspicious. However, it's pretty terrible what happened to their lives if they weren't responsible. Text book case on the injustice that happens to people accused of crimes.

    If the Ramsey's didn't do, it's probable that someone the Ramsey's know did it. It's unlikely that some random babysnatcher in the middle of the night picked a random house to murder a random child inside their her own house.
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    Re: Jonbenet Ramsey Case

    Post by ziggy on Tue Apr 27, 2010 3:33 pm

    Here is the skull fracture: It has been estimated that she would have had to fall about 15 feet and land on her head for the accidental scenario to make sense. Follow the evidence...
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    Re: Jonbenet Ramsey Case

    Post by ziggy on Tue Apr 27, 2010 3:38 pm

    Ransom note: too long to be written in a panic after the murder - if it was Patsy or any Perp - it would have been much shorter and to the point - 3 pages is a bit much when you are in a panic. I believe it was written before and that is also why I think it is someone who knew of the Ramseys but was not close in their circle.

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    Re: Jonbenet Ramsey Case

    Post by Guest on Tue Apr 27, 2010 3:50 pm

    ziggy wrote:I hope I never get in trouble and someone on the jury lets my fate lie in whether or not I would wear my designer clothes on a private early morning plane trip or the ones from the night before, cuz it would be the latter and I would be screwed!! Although I would look smashing regardless...sometimes (with mineral makeup especially) I can roll out of bed, remove the sleepy, dab rice paper on the face and dust with powder and the make up from the night before still looks fresh. Back comb the crown to cover up the bed head, finger comb the hair and spray with some nice shine spray...some yummy body lotion and I bet you couldn't tell I had not showered. Put on the same clothes I wore the night before at home (no cigarette smoke or food odors from restaurants) and viola! It is HOW TO GET READY FAST so that you can get that extra hour of sleep.
    You raise an interesting point about. What detail about any case may someday matter to a jury? You never really know what makes an impression.
    An example could be a personal injury case. One side puts on a Dr. that testifies about serious lifelong injuries. The other side puts on a Dr. that examines the same patient and concludes that the injuries are neither serisous nor permanent. You have two highly educated specialists rendering conflicting opinions and who makes the determination as to which opinion is more valid??? A jury made up of people who may have only completed high school. This is not to say that the members of the jury are stupid. The point I am making is that what qualifies them to make an informed decision about the validity of a medical conclusion reached by a Dr. They are most likely deciding the case based upon non factual criteria. Which Dr. presented the material better? They are making guesses about the possible motivations of the plaintiff. They may resent something that the defendant said or a rude manner in which they acted. There are a variety of things that could make an impression either good or bad and any of those could potentially tip the momentum of the case one way or the other.
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    Re: Jonbenet Ramsey Case

    Post by tapu on Tue Apr 27, 2010 3:52 pm

    ziggy wrote:I hope I never get in trouble and someone on the jury lets my fate lie in whether or not I would wear my designer clothes on a private early morning plane trip or the ones from the night before, cuz it would be the latter and I would be screwed!! Although I would look smashing regardless...sometimes (with mineral makeup especially) I can roll out of bed, remove the sleepy, dab rice paper on the face and dust with powder and the make up from the night before still looks fresh. Back comb the crown to cover up the bed head, finger comb the hair and spray with some nice shine spray...some yummy body lotion and I bet you couldn't tell I had not showered. Put on the same clothes I wore the night before at home (no cigarette smoke or food odors from restaurants) and viola! It is HOW TO GET READY FAST so that you can get that extra hour of sleep.


    Hey, me too! Except... no powder, or make-up, or comb, or spray, or body lotion. Talk about fast! Smile
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    Re: Jonbenet Ramsey Case

    Post by ziggy on Tue Apr 27, 2010 3:53 pm

    No match to cord, tape or the fibers that were found on JB's genital area to anything in the R home. Foreign DNA in her panties and under fingernails - exculpatory as to any Ramsey. Never found the other broken piece of paintbrush which to me says souvenier. House was unsecured - entry could have been window and some leaves and styrofoam peanuts seem to have been dragged in supporting that theory and butler pantry door another possibility.
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    Re: Jonbenet Ramsey Case

    Post by ziggy on Tue Apr 27, 2010 3:54 pm

    Scott wrote:
    ziggy wrote:I hope I never get in trouble and someone on the jury lets my fate lie in whether or not I would wear my designer clothes on a private early morning plane trip or the ones from the night before, cuz it would be the latter and I would be screwed!! Although I would look smashing regardless...sometimes (with mineral makeup especially) I can roll out of bed, remove the sleepy, dab rice paper on the face and dust with powder and the make up from the night before still looks fresh. Back comb the crown to cover up the bed head, finger comb the hair and spray with some nice shine spray...some yummy body lotion and I bet you couldn't tell I had not showered. Put on the same clothes I wore the night before at home (no cigarette smoke or food odors from restaurants) and viola! It is HOW TO GET READY FAST so that you can get that extra hour of sleep.
    You raise an interesting point about. What detail about any case may someday matter to a jury? You never really know what makes an impression.
    An example could be a personal injury case. One side puts on a Dr. that testifies about serious lifelong injuries. The other side puts on a Dr. that examines the same patient and concludes that the injuries are neither serisous nor permanent. You have two highly educated specialists rendering conflicting opinions and who makes the determination as to which opinion is more valid??? A jury made up of people who may have only completed high school. This is not to say that the members of the jury are stupid. The point I am making is that what qualifies them to make an informed decision about the validity of a medical conclusion reached by a Dr. They are most likely deciding the case based upon non factual criteria. Which Dr. presented the material better? They are making guesses about the possible motivations of the plaintiff. They may resent something that the defendant said or a rude manner in which they acted. There are a variety of things that could make an impression either good or bad and any of those could potentially tip the momentum of the case one way or the other.

    That's why juries are so frightening sometimes and why deals are made...
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    Re: Jonbenet Ramsey Case

    Post by claudicici on Tue Apr 27, 2010 5:02 pm

    AndresEscobar wrote:I have very little to say about this case. When it happened, I was young enough to believe what police, experts, analysts, and news reporters said about crimes. So at the time I thought RDI. Now, I know better.

    That said, a few things: first, Ramsey's were certainly suspicious. However, it's pretty terrible what happened to their lives if they weren't responsible. Text book case on the injustice that happens to people accused of crimes.


    If the Ramsey's didn't do, it's probable that someone the Ramsey's know did it. It's unlikely that some random babysnatcher in the middle of the night picked a random house to murder a random child inside their her own house.
    I just don't understand why everyone is saying 'the ramsey's had their life ruined"...if they would not have been the Ramseys but anyone else they would have been treated completely different...the D.A. kept refusing search warrants for simple things like Patsy's fur boots and coat,if they weren't the Ramsey's from the beginning all these people wouldn't have been allowed to trample over the scene,if they weren't the Ramsey's Patsy's sister wouldn't have been allowed to sneak god knows what out of the house
    if they weren't the Ramsey's this case could have been solved.
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    Re: Jonbenet Ramsey Case

    Post by Percy on Tue Apr 27, 2010 5:32 pm

    claudicici wrote:
    AndresEscobar wrote:I have very little to say about this case. When it happened, I was young enough to believe what police, experts, analysts, and news reporters said about crimes. So at the time I thought RDI. Now, I know better.

    That said, a few things: first, Ramsey's were certainly suspicious. However, it's pretty terrible what happened to their lives if they weren't responsible. Text book case on the injustice that happens to people accused of crimes.


    If the Ramsey's didn't do, it's probable that someone the Ramsey's know did it. It's unlikely that some random babysnatcher in the middle of the night picked a random house to murder a random child inside their her own house.
    I just don't understand why everyone is saying 'the ramsey's had their life ruined"...if they would not have been the Ramseys but anyone else they would have been treated completely different...the D.A. kept refusing search warrants for simple things like Patsy's fur boots and coat,if they weren't the Ramsey's from the beginning all these people wouldn't have been allowed to trample over the scene,if they weren't the Ramsey's Patsy's sister wouldn't have been allowed to sneak god knows what out of the house
    if they weren't the Ramsey's this case could have been solved.

    Yes but it works both ways, if you were you and I, sure, we may have been tried, maybe convicted or maybe not, but we wouldnt have had to endure the media circus that someone like the Ramseys did, they were tried in the court of public opinion and lost everything because of it. I think I would rather have my day in court and get it over with than have to deal with the media circus they did for 20+ years.


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    Re: Jonbenet Ramsey Case

    Post by the tapu on Tue Apr 27, 2010 6:39 pm

    I SO agree with Pax on this one. And the Anthony's will have this run their lives forever, too. I think it's shameful the way very large segments of the public go after these people when they haven't been arrested, or tried, or even thought to be the actual perps themselves.

    This is a gross and ugly part of American pop culture right now. It doesn't seem like it's on its way out, and I can't imagine how far it may go from here. We could see some outright vigilante-ism.
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    Re: Jonbenet Ramsey Case

    Post by Percy on Tue Apr 27, 2010 7:27 pm

    the tapu wrote:I SO agree with Pax on this one. And the Anthony's will have this run their lives forever, too. I think it's shameful the way very large segments of the public go after these people when they haven't been arrested, or tried, or even thought to be the actual perps themselves.

    This is a gross and ugly part of American pop culture right now. It doesn't seem like it's on its way out, and I can't imagine how far it may go from here. We could see some outright vigilante-ism.
    Oh I am sure it isnt on its way out, if anything it is just growing legs, with the internet etc, these types of things will only get worse. It used to be only the rich and famous now its even the Anthonys, although most people who are not rich and famous wont get the sort of media attention the Ramseys did, the Anthonys have shown that it can and will happen to some.


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    Re: Jonbenet Ramsey Case

    Post by claudicici on Tue Apr 27, 2010 7:44 pm

    yes,that is very true but just as the Anthony's they made themselves look guilty....I know it's advised to lawyer up when something like that happens but I don't think it's a natural reaction...I just can't see parents stone walling an investigation and not even being willing to answer simple questions if they are innocent.It's just not true that the Ramsey's were the only once looked at,the investigators worked their asses off to investigate everyone in this case and everything always pointed back to the Ramseys until Lou Smitt took the case and he was obviously biasd.
    ...going back to Patsy's outfit one more time,I change a lot not because I'm trying to make a fashion statement but I'm messy and clumsy...anything I do cooking,cleaning,painting,eating usually ends up with a change of clothes...this happened when people were still smoking at partys,eating,hugging,the clothes Patsy was wearing were not comftable travel clothes and I can't believe they did not smell.I 'm still not convinced at all that she would 'nt have changed.
    I agree with Ziggy that the ransom note was more likely written before the murder,there was even a practice note.I'm sure everyone that has seen the note would agree that not many men write like that,it's a woman's handwriting...I'm also sure everyone agrees that the killer was familiar with the Ramsey's house to even find that little room in the basement and to know were the light switch was...it was too dark in there to do any killing or staging with the light off...so everyone that was investigated that knew about that little room did not match that handwriting....experts either believed it was definetely Patsy or Patsy was the only one that possibly matched that handwriting....it's also very unlikely that a random female would have entered the home,wrote the note and killed JonBenet,statistically woman just don't do that very often ( the only possible other author of that note to me would be Mrs.Claus because she was a movie critic and because of the short story she wrote,but her writing style was just so different)....I've never seen Burke's handwriting but i never excluded him either...again that leaves Patsy....I think either Patsy or Burke had motive and enough hate and rage for JonBenet at the moment.I think the force used to bash in her skull is more prove to me that someone was very angry at the little girl and someone who gets that angry at you has a very close realationship to you love/hate not just a random intruder that wanted her to be unconscious so he could take her away but then decided to molest her a little and kill her and leave her there...
    ...oh and the main thing that's fishy to me about the ransom note is that Patsy's fingerprints were NOT on it !!! She claims she saw it laying on the stairs and read parts of it in a dimly lit environment ,read the part where it said "you're being watched,don't call the police" and then called the cops and all her friends....it's not believable to me...everyone reacts different,but I'm sure most people would have grabbed that note ,ran to their husband,screamed ,got the money together and kept the phone lines open to hear from the kidnapper,if calling the police they would beg them to be discreet,who in a million years would call all their friends like it's some kinda metting to play a game of clue?
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    Re: Jonbenet Ramsey Case

    Post by Percy on Tue Apr 27, 2010 7:53 pm

    claudicici wrote:yes,that is very true but just as the Anthony's they made themselves look guilty....I know it's advised to lawyer up when something like that happens but I don't think it's a natural reaction...I just can't see parents stone walling an investigation and not even being willing to answer simple questions if they are innocent.It's just not true that the Ramsey's were the only once looked at,the investigators worked their asses off to investigate everyone in this case and everything always pointed back to the Ramseys until Lou Smitt took the case and he was obviously biasd.
    ...going back to Patsy's outfit one more time,I change a lot not because I'm trying to make a fashion statement but I'm messy and clumsy...anything I do cooking,cleaning,painting,eating usually ends up with a change of clothes...this happened when people were still smoking at partys,eating,hugging,the clothes Patsy was wearing were not comftable travel clothes and I can't believe they did not smell.I 'm still not convinced at all that she would 'nt have changed.
    I agree with Ziggy that the ransom note was more likely written before the murder,there was even a practice note.I'm sure everyone that has seen the note would agree that not many men write like that,it's a woman's handwriting...I'm also sure everyone agrees that the killer was familiar with the Ramsey's house to even find that little room in the basement and to know were the light switch was...it was too dark in there to do any killing or staging with the light off...so everyone that was investigated that knew about that little room did not match that handwriting....experts either believed it was definetely Patsy or Patsy was the only one that possibly matched that handwriting....it's also very unlikely that a random female would have entered the home,wrote the note and killed JonBenet,statistically woman just don't do that very often ( the only possible other author of that note to me would be Mrs.Claus because she was a movie critic and because of the short story she wrote,but her writing style was just so different)....I've never seen Burke's handwriting but i never excluded him either...again that leaves Patsy....I think either Patsy or Burke had motive and enough hate and rage for JonBenet at the moment.I think the force used to bash in her skull is more prove to me that someone was very angry at the little girl and someone who gets that angry at you has a very close realationship to you love/hate not just a random intruder that wanted her to be unconscious so he could take her away but then decided to molest her a little and kill her and leave her there...

    Understood but regardless of what it makes you look like to the outside world you should never speak to the police without a lawyer present, guilty or not. Police are trained professionals, their job is to mind fuck you and you cannot and will not outsmart them very often, whether you are guilty or not you should always have a lawyer present during any questioning by the police.


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    Re: Jonbenet Ramsey Case

    Post by claudicici on Tue Apr 27, 2010 7:58 pm

    ziggy wrote:No match to cord, tape or the fibers that were found on JB's genital area to anything in the R home. Foreign DNA in her panties and under fingernails - exculpatory as to any Ramsey. Never found the other broken piece of paintbrush which to me says souvenier. House was unsecured - entry could have been window and some leaves and styrofoam peanuts seem to have been dragged in supporting that theory and butler pantry door another possibility.
    the Ramseys were allowed to take out any shred of evidence that may have been left behind...
    the D.A. denied search warrants again and again...
    ....also the fact that they renovated their house while the investigation was going on speaks volumes to me....wouldn't you want to make sure if any evidence was left by the killer it would still be there?
    ....and John Ramsey saying "i'm not angry at whoever did this" Patsy saying only 2 people know,the one who did it and the one that was told ...and then only god knows and he's not telling...
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    Re: Jonbenet Ramsey Case

    Post by ziggy on Tue Apr 27, 2010 8:19 pm

    Claudi - can you link to some of that because I think you may not have the facts exactly right? Pam went on the 28th after evidence was collected and she was to get things for the funeral and for an indeterminate amount of time - so things the family would need because they had no intention of going back there. An inventory list was taken - not as thorough as some would like but people have been known to list off the items so it seems pretty detailed to me.

    There was also an attempt to block evidence that would exculpate the Ramseys from being heard at the grand jury by the very people you accuse of giving them special treatment.

    Christian people are taught to forgive and some people have trouble keeping their anger through sorrow; some never find it; some only know the anger so these comments depend on various factors as how someone was raised, how many meds they are on etc. I don't feel very angry when I'm riddled with valium. Patsy's comment was right on - criminals usually tell someone else in some way what they did. She is saying that someone out there knows or suspects BESIDES a perp. How this leads to guilt is beyond me.
    They never went back to that house.

    You also never responded to the questions about the doll.

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