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    Sam in court today (June 22)

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    claudicici

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    Re: Sam in court today (June 22)

    Post by claudicici on Wed Jul 07, 2010 8:00 am

    ...I also belief the only reason Bowen would have said something like that is because there's not really a question of guilt.Couldn't the reason they may have (or not) wanted to offer him a deal simply be that they wanted to spare the (cost and length ) of a trial?.
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    ziggy

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    Re: Sam in court today (June 22)

    Post by ziggy on Wed Jul 07, 2010 2:07 pm

    Agree with both Scott and Claudi - no reason really, I mean REALLY in all reality checks we can put ourselves through, to try and deny guilt. That may be an option under the law, but for practical purposes it's a waste of time and money isn't it? I mean, just because you CAN do something doesn't mean you should. I would be more impressed with honesty here, which it looks like Bowen is portraying. Refreshing if you ask me.
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    Percy
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    Re: Sam in court today (June 22)

    Post by Percy on Wed Jul 07, 2010 2:38 pm

    Scott wrote:I want to replay the interview to see exactly what Bowen said. I agree on the surface it sounds odd. Is it possible that the evidence against Sam is so overwhelming that establishing guilt is not really an issue? Perhaps the only move the defense has is to bring up his misreable childhood and try to make him seem human enough that a jury wants to spare his life.
    Yea, if Bowen is going to stipulate guilt right off that bat and simply go to trial to try and paint Sam as a troubled kid with abad family history to avoid the DP then certain a pretrial spin of 'He is very remorseful' would make some sense, but that is really walking the razors edge for an attorney, their job is fight for their client not admit guilt unless has been reached.


    Im probably over reacting and perhaps misunderstanding the context Bowen said this in but just taking what Zig said at face value seems way over the top to me.


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    Re: Sam in court today (June 22)

    Post by Percy on Wed Jul 07, 2010 2:40 pm

    claudicici wrote:...I also belief the only reason Bowen would have said something like that is because there's not really a question of guilt.Couldn't the reason they may have (or not) wanted to offer him a deal simply be that they wanted to spare the (cost and length ) of a trial?.

    Sure but as an attorney you cant say that until the deal is sealed and signed, he cant just go around admitting Sam's guilt by saying things like "he is remorseful" if there is in fact going to be a not guilty plea and a trial thereafter to establish such. Its negligence and laying grounds for an appeal for lousy representation.

    However, I dont know all the facts so I am basically just pulling this out of my ass lol.


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    Re: Sam in court today (June 22)

    Post by Guest on Wed Jul 07, 2010 2:52 pm

    Post 4 on this thread.

    I just rewatched the video and something else stood out to me. The reporter indicated that the defense did not want to have McCroskey appear in court but that the prosecution pushed for it.

    Could it be that Sam is such a wild card that Bowen wants to minimize his exposure? Of course in many cases he would want to minimize exposure but I would think at least most clients could manage to walk into court for a murder charge without a smirk. Even after months of waiting Sam just does not have it in him to look serious about this. I think Sam's stupid smile hurt his case. It almost says that he is not even participating in his defense. That could be a leap I suppose but at a very minimum I would say Sam is not helping himself.
    I am not sure the defense has much to work with here.


    Last edited by Scott on Wed Jul 07, 2010 4:02 pm; edited 1 time in total
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    ziggy

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    Re: Sam in court today (June 22)

    Post by ziggy on Wed Jul 07, 2010 3:45 pm

    Scott that could very well be why the prosecution insisted on him appearing in court - so that he cannot later appeal claiming ineffectiveness of counsel and that he was not permitted to participate in his defense by not being present at all hearings. It's possible he doesn't care what happens to him; it's possible he is not really paying attention to what his attorney is doing or following the process all that closely. It's important for him to be there so that he has some awareness of what the hey diddle is going on.

    Didn't I catch somewhere where Bowen said that the gravity of his situation is slowly starting to sink in? (paraphrased) What is that? Ignorance? Denial? It certainly is not remorse. I think Sam is indifferent and Bowen is desperately trying to garner some compassion for his very unlikeable client.
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    Percy
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    Re: Sam in court today (June 22)

    Post by Percy on Wed Jul 07, 2010 4:43 pm

    I think Bowen knows that Sam wants his ten minutes of fame and there is really no telling what Sam may do when the lights and cameras are tuned in to him while court is in session, I mean really, he may do something wild and outrageous just because he knows he is done for and has no chance to get out of this, may as well go down in style, at least in his mind.


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    Re: Sam in court today (June 22)

    Post by Guest on Thu Jul 08, 2010 10:40 am

    Do you suppose if Sam is medicated now, that his disposition (if thats the word for it), would change his demeanor from when he committed the crime to the present? Would it change things with him , should he appear in court? I'm wondering if he is not receiving medication, what his disposition would be like. Would he really be seeing reality or is he really a depressed soul, like his latest song depicted. or would it even really matter if he is medicated or not? if he is being given anti-depressants, it's been over 6 months for it to work for him, to stabilize his seratonins,etc. ye, he could be remorseful, but to what extent with medication? do you understand what I am trying to say?
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    AndresEscobar

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    Re: Sam in court today (June 22)

    Post by AndresEscobar on Thu Jul 08, 2010 10:46 am

    ziggy wrote:Hmm DNA I can believe but cell phone records...maybe they just haven't been turned over in discovery or something. Bown still has to assemble all this evidence and try to figure out how to attack it - and he'll have to hire experts with the taxpayer's money cuz I don't think Sam can afford that kind of defense. He's got his hands full for sure. I can see why the trial would take a bit longer to get underway.

    He seems to be doing a very good job of trying to soften or mitigate the public's view of Sam and his smirkiness; saying it's just a nervous smile and constantly saying how much remorse he has. Is stating how remorseful he is establishing his guilt? I wonder.

    And if the DA were to work on a plea deal there would be no need to hire experts with the taxpayers money. Bowen has to do everything he can to effectively and competently represent his client. If he were to just lay down and agree to a deal where Sam would be put to death that would be the most shocking case of malpractice and inept lawyering ever. He'd lose any credibility in the legal profession, with the general public, and probably lose his license.

    So, for the record, the person wasting tax payer dollars is the DA, not Bowen.


    Last edited by AndresEscobar on Thu Jul 08, 2010 11:01 am; edited 1 time in total
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    Re: Sam in court today (June 22)

    Post by AndresEscobar on Thu Jul 08, 2010 10:50 am

    Percy wrote:

    To Zig, Bowen with the remorseful comments is bordering on malpractice and if I could reach him I would rip him a new one, no trial has taken place no guilt has been legally established by a jury and Bowen is off running his mouth about how remorseful Sam is. I will personally file an appeal on those grounds alone if Sam is convicted, its the most unprofessional and boneheaded comment, pretrial, that I have ever seen come out of a defense attorney's mouth. Why in the fuck would you say something like that when your client has yet to be found guilty and no guilt established by a jury yet. What the fuck is Sam remorseful for? He didnt doing anything thats been proven yet. I may call Bowen myself when I get the time and ask for an explanation for this.


    The only way this would be acceptable is if a guilty plea deal is agreed on already and thats another big question mark as we know.

    I would disagree. I don't think there's any real question about whether Sam was involved in the deaths of these people. The questions are to what degree can Sam be held culpable and what type of intent was involved, whether there were mitigating factors, etc. Saying he is remorseful 10 months out does not change these issues because intent is establish at the time of the crime. Also, they should be in plea negotiations up until the time of trial, so this is also posturing by Bowen.
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    Re: Sam in court today (June 22)

    Post by AndresEscobar on Thu Jul 08, 2010 10:59 am

    Scott wrote:Post 4 on this thread.

    I just rewatched the video and something else stood out to me. The reporter indicated that the defense did not want to have McCroskey appear in court but that the prosecution pushed for it.

    Could it be that Sam is such a wild card that Bowen wants to minimize his exposure? Of course in many cases he would want to minimize exposure but I would think at least most clients could manage to walk into court for a murder charge without a smirk. Even after months of waiting Sam just does not have it in him to look serious about this. I think Sam's stupid smile hurt his case. It almost says that he is not even participating in his defense. That could be a leap I suppose but at a very minimum I would say Sam is not helping himself.
    I am not sure the defense has much to work with here.

    A lot of it has to do with his youth, immaturity and obvious social/mental problems. A clients demeanor in court is a huge factor for the jury. Having someone in court like Sam with obvious social problems is very difficult.

    It's obvious even here: involving Sam's "smirks". Sam's smirk could be a nervous reaction. It could be a result of his embarrassment, or fear, or anxiety. This is a kid no one ever paid attention to. That barely left his house. Now he's stalked by press, photographers, swarmed by police, etc. Seems like it would be a bit overwhelming. That's not even considering the gravity of the situation he's facing.
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    Re: Sam in court today (June 22)

    Post by ziggy on Thu Jul 08, 2010 12:38 pm

    Or - because he was a kid no one paid attention to and he obviously wanted to be "known" by taking on a stage name and trying to become a well-known rapper - he actually likes the attention. His fame and notariaty far, far, outweigh anything his horror-core counterparts will accomplish...he's National NEWS baby.

    You are also presuming that he has mental problems. We know a psych. eval was done but how do you know it's not just a personality disorder? Some mental problems, although severe, still don't mitigate the acts he has allegedly committed.

    I guess Bowen needs to have a sit down with him and since the gravity of his situatin is starting to finally be realized, discuss his behavior and how it will be perceived. He's immature but not a child and not incapable of understanding.

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    Re: Sam in court today (June 22)

    Post by Guest on Thu Jul 08, 2010 12:50 pm

    ziggy wrote:Or - because he was a kid no one paid attention to and he obviously wanted to be "known" by taking on a stage name and trying to become a well-known rapper - he actually likes the attention. His fame and notariaty far, far, outweigh anything his horror-core counterparts will accomplish...he's National NEWS baby.

    You are also presuming that he has mental problems. We know a psych. eval was done but how do you know it's not just a personality disorder? Some mental problems, although severe, still don't mitigate the acts he has allegedly committed.

    I guess Bowen needs to have a sit down with him and since the gravity of his situatin is starting to finally be realized, discuss his behavior and how it will be perceived. He's immature but not a child and not incapable of understanding.
    Perhaps Bowen has discussed this with Sam. Perhaps Sam just does not care. The SHOW he gets to put on now may be more important to him than any potential penalty. He really is facing no good options.
    We have discussed this in various ways all over the forum before. I predict the psych eval will show all kinds of problems BUT nothing that will mitigate what he did. There is not a chance they establish he did not know right from wrong.


    Last edited by Scott on Thu Jul 08, 2010 1:12 pm; edited 1 time in total
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    AndresEscobar

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    Re: Sam in court today (June 22)

    Post by AndresEscobar on Thu Jul 08, 2010 12:59 pm

    ziggy wrote:Or - because he was a kid no one paid attention to and he obviously wanted to be "known" by taking on a stage name and trying to become a well-known rapper - he actually likes the attention. His fame and notariaty far, far, outweigh anything his horror-core counterparts will accomplish...he's National NEWS baby.

    You are also presuming that he has mental problems. We know a psych. eval was done but how do you know it's not just a personality disorder? Some mental problems, although severe, still don't mitigate the acts he has allegedly committed.

    I guess Bowen needs to have a sit down with him and since the gravity of his situatin is starting to finally be realized, discuss his behavior and how it will be perceived. He's immature but not a child and not incapable of understanding.

    I was referring to strictly courtroom demeanor, not the acts. Personality, mental, social disorders are all have an effect on courtroom demeanor and are all reasons why an attorney would attempt to exclude a client from being present at certain proceedings. The jury places a lot of weight on courtroom demeanor of a defendant.
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    Re: Sam in court today (June 22)

    Post by Percy on Thu Jul 08, 2010 1:34 pm

    AndresEscobar wrote:
    ziggy wrote:Or - because he was a kid no one paid attention to and he obviously wanted to be "known" by taking on a stage name and trying to become a well-known rapper - he actually likes the attention. His fame and notariaty far, far, outweigh anything his horror-core counterparts will accomplish...he's National NEWS baby.

    You are also presuming that he has mental problems. We know a psych. eval was done but how do you know it's not just a personality disorder? Some mental problems, although severe, still don't mitigate the acts he has allegedly committed.

    I guess Bowen needs to have a sit down with him and since the gravity of his situatin is starting to finally be realized, discuss his behavior and how it will be perceived. He's immature but not a child and not incapable of understanding.

    I was referring to strictly courtroom demeanor, not the acts. Personality, mental, social disorders are all have an effect on courtroom demeanor and are all reasons why an attorney would attempt to exclude a client from being present at certain proceedings. The jury places a lot of weight on courtroom demeanor of a defendant.



    Good to see you brother Escobar!



    Netherlands or Spain?


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    Percy
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    Re: Sam in court today (June 22)

    Post by Percy on Thu Jul 08, 2010 1:37 pm

    AndresEscobar wrote:
    Percy wrote:

    To Zig, Bowen with the remorseful comments is bordering on malpractice and if I could reach him I would rip him a new one, no trial has taken place no guilt has been legally established by a jury and Bowen is off running his mouth about how remorseful Sam is. I will personally file an appeal on those grounds alone if Sam is convicted, its the most unprofessional and boneheaded comment, pretrial, that I have ever seen come out of a defense attorney's mouth. Why in the fuck would you say something like that when your client has yet to be found guilty and no guilt established by a jury yet. What the fuck is Sam remorseful for? He didnt doing anything thats been proven yet. I may call Bowen myself when I get the time and ask for an explanation for this.


    The only way this would be acceptable is if a guilty plea deal is agreed on already and thats another big question mark as we know.

    I would disagree. I don't think there's any real question about whether Sam was involved in the deaths of these people. The questions are to what degree can Sam be held culpable and what type of intent was involved, whether there were mitigating factors, etc. Saying he is remorseful 10 months out does not change these issues because intent is establish at the time of the crime. Also, they should be in plea negotiations up until the time of trial, so this is also posturing by Bowen.


    Absolutely agree, if that is the tack Bowen is taking then yes I can see why the comments about being remorseful were made, but I have no way of knowing what his defense is going to be.


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    Re: Sam in court today (June 22)

    Post by ziggy on Thu Jul 08, 2010 1:47 pm

    AndresEscobar wrote:
    ziggy wrote:Or - because he was a kid no one paid attention to and he obviously wanted to be "known" by taking on a stage name and trying to become a well-known rapper - he actually likes the attention. His fame and notariaty far, far, outweigh anything his horror-core counterparts will accomplish...he's National NEWS baby.

    You are also presuming that he has mental problems. We know a psych. eval was done but how do you know it's not just a personality disorder? Some mental problems, although severe, still don't mitigate the acts he has allegedly committed.

    I guess Bowen needs to have a sit down with him and since the gravity of his situatin is starting to finally be realized, discuss his behavior and how it will be perceived. He's immature but not a child and not incapable of understanding.

    I was referring to strictly courtroom demeanor, not the acts. Personality, mental, social disorders are all have an effect on courtroom demeanor and are all reasons why an attorney would attempt to exclude a client from being present at certain proceedings. The jury places a lot of weight on courtroom demeanor of a defendant.

    Indeed, but in the Casey Anthony case the same thing was happening and the prosecution filed a motion that Ms. Anthony be required to attend all but the status hearings because they were worried about ineffectiveness of counsel claims - they wanted to eliminate any doubt that she was aware of her defense team's conduct and that motion was granted despite the claims by the defense that the media was obsessed with her appearance and her actions in court.

    The change of venue will help mitigate that (in theory).
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    claudicici

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    Re: Sam in court today (June 22)

    Post by claudicici on Sat Jul 10, 2010 6:18 am

    oh,just have to answer Percy's Netherlands or Spain question....strangely enough my sister kept saying the netherlands would win....in the beginning ,while I was in Germany...I told her no way...then of course as time went by more and more I thought we were going to make it and was really disappointed when we didn't...then again german world dominance never turned out to be a good thing...so I guess my sister might be right...I think it's going to be spain though...will see soon! sorry totally OT !

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    Re: Sam in court today (June 22)

    Post by Guest on Sat Jul 10, 2010 8:57 am

    ziggy wrote:
    AndresEscobar wrote:
    ziggy wrote:Or - because he was a kid no one paid attention to and he obviously wanted to be "known" by taking on a stage name and trying to become a well-known rapper - he actually likes the attention. His fame and notariaty far, far, outweigh anything his horror-core counterparts will accomplish...he's National NEWS baby.

    You are also presuming that he has mental problems. We know a psych. eval was done but how do you know it's not just a personality disorder? Some mental problems, although severe, still don't mitigate the acts he has allegedly committed.

    I guess Bowen needs to have a sit down with him and since the gravity of his situatin is starting to finally be realized, discuss his behavior and how it will be perceived. He's immature but not a child and not incapable of understanding.

    I was referring to strictly courtroom demeanor, not the acts. Personality, mental, social disorders are all have an effect on courtroom demeanor and are all reasons why an attorney would attempt to exclude a client from being present at certain proceedings. The jury places a lot of weight on courtroom demeanor of a defendant.

    Indeed, but in the Casey Anthony case the same thing was happening and the prosecution filed a motion that Ms. Anthony be required to attend all but the status hearings because they were worried about ineffectiveness of counsel claims - they wanted to eliminate any doubt that she was aware of her defense team's conduct and that motion was granted despite the claims by the defense that the media was obsessed with her appearance and her actions in court.

    The change of venue will help mitigate that (in theory).
    They pretty much HAVE TO change the venue. The case is so sensational and Farmville / Prince Edward County is so small. Though it did make some national news, the media coverage has been mostly regional. It hit the news a lot in Richmond. Three hours away in the Norfolk / VA Beach area not so much.
    I don't think the venue will matter all that much though. By this I mean I think they get the same verdict anywhere in VA. The facts of the case, horrible as they are, will still be the same.
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    Re: Sam in court today (June 22)

    Post by Percy on Sat Jul 10, 2010 4:55 pm

    claudicici wrote:oh,just have to answer Percy's Netherlands or Spain question....strangely enough my sister kept saying the netherlands would win....in the beginning ,while I was in Germany...I told her no way...then of course as time went by more and more I thought we were going to make it and was really disappointed when we didn't...then again german world dominance never turned out to be a good thing...so I guess my sister might be right...I think it's going to be spain though...will see soon! sorry totally OT !
    After the US lost I was also rooting for Germany, they obviously just had a bad game but they were the better team, Netherlands just had a better day that day. Spain is a footie powerhouse so I suspect they will win but that Netherlands team doesnt give up easily, should be a great game.


    The Germany, Uruguay game today was great and I was glad to see Germany win. The World Cup and the Tour de France, which I am watching now, are probably my two favorite sporting events.


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    Re: Sam in court today (June 22)

    Post by LoveEndsWar on Mon Jul 26, 2010 1:54 pm

    Is he currently on medication? That smirky smirk is either proud or he is fucked up on something. I just can't believe this picture!!!!!!!!!!
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    Re: Sam in court today (June 22)

    Post by tapu on Mon Jul 26, 2010 7:54 pm

    Hello, Love. Smile



    Let's see... I just went back through this thread and I was thinking two things.... Oh yeah:

    1. I could see where, if Sam really has certain social problems, then having him in the courtroom might actually benefit the defense. If he seems whacked enough, the jury may be convinced that he didn't understand the nature of the act. (M'Naughton, as I'm sure you guys know already. Not sure if M'N is the law in VA, but you get my drift.)

    2. I know Sam is supposed to be smart in a lot of ways, and maybe it's just "social problems" or whatever (what the fuck are those, anyway? Is there clinical evidence for this?), but I get the feeling over and over that this dude is retarded. The gravity is sinking in?? Is he a concrete block?

    Weird all around. tapu
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    Re: Sam in court today (June 22)

    Post by tapu on Mon Jul 26, 2010 7:56 pm

    oh yeah, and a question:

    why would either side want the details of the murders to be "sealed forever"?

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    Re: Sam in court today (June 22)

    Post by Guest on Mon Jul 26, 2010 8:02 pm

    tapu wrote:Hello, Love.



    Let's see... I just went back through this thread and I was thinking two things.... Oh yeah:

    1. I could see where, if Sam really has certain social problems, then having him in the courtroom might actually benefit the defense. If he seems whacked enough, the jury may be convinced that he didn't understand the nature of the act. (M'Naughton, as I'm sure you guys know already. Not sure if M'N is the law in VA, but you get my drift.)

    2. I know Sam is supposed to be smart in a lot of ways, and maybe it's just "social problems" or whatever (what the fuck are those, anyway? Is there clinical evidence for this?), but I get the feeling over and over that this dude is retarded. The gravity is sinking in?? Is he a concrete block?

    Weird all around. tapu
    I have yet to see.... "smart."
    I am not sure he fully understands the nature of his act. He knows it is wrong. He knows he is in trouble. Not sure if he understands the actions as normal rational people do. I don't think there will ever be an explanation that will make sense to regular people becuase there is no set of circumstances that would prompt regular people to do what he did.
    I think the way he continues to act makes it easier for the jurrors to sleep after they agree to put the needle in his arm. If he demonstrates no remorse he is unlikely to find any mercy among those making decisons about him.
    Though is life in prison mercy????
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    Re: Sam in court today (June 22)

    Post by ziggy on Mon Jul 26, 2010 8:49 pm


    You mean this smirk?

    I can't help but believe - still - that the young man is simply a sociopath capable of murder. Maybe it built up for some time. An insanity defense will only help in sentencing because if there is a trial, he's toast imo.

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