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    Will Oakland Riot when the Mehserle (BART shooting) Verdict comes down?

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    ziggy

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    Will Oakland Riot when the Mehserle (BART shooting) Verdict comes down?

    Post by ziggy on Thu Jul 08, 2010 4:46 pm

    First, yes I think out here in the insane Bay Area those with too much time on their hands like to find any reason to riot - add East Bay, Bezerkely into the mix and it's a done deal no matter what the verdict , imo.

    Second - I'd like y'all to weigh in on what you think the verdict should be. I can't help but think from the testimony that it was an accident so if the jury believes that they should come back with Involuntary Manslaughter (which will trigger a firestorm of a riot)...it was criminally negligent in his position as a BART officer for sure. What other options do they have? I can't see them finding him guilty of the intentional murder of this unfortunate man. But, juries do weird things so brace yourselves either way.

    http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/comments_blog/2010/07/bart-verdict.html

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    Re: Will Oakland Riot when the Mehserle (BART shooting) Verdict comes down?

    Post by Guest on Thu Jul 08, 2010 5:01 pm

    Great case. Anyone have a link to the video of this? That would be helpful. I saw it before but cannot seem to find it right now.
    I too beleive it was an accident. I see how it can happen. I dialed a phone number on the calculator on my desk the other day. It is not because I don't know the difference. It is because I was temp not thinking about an action that I do every day. Taser and pistol feel approximately the same in the hand. It can happen.
    I am not certain I even see criminal negligence. I see a mistake.

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    Re: Will Oakland Riot when the Mehserle (BART shooting) Verdict comes down?

    Post by Guest on Thu Jul 08, 2010 5:07 pm

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eZTbJH6BNaU&feature=related
    Here is a link. Not a great quality video but this is it.
    I think the real question is....
    Would it be appropriate within the departmetns use of force guidelines for the officer to have tasered the man in this siutiaton? Was he resisting that much. From the video I honestly cannot tell. If yes it would okay to taser then this is not a crime it is an accident. If no not okay to taser then this is negligent manslaughter.
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    Re: Will Oakland Riot when the Mehserle (BART shooting) Verdict comes down?

    Post by ziggy on Thu Jul 08, 2010 5:08 pm

    Yes, apparently if you research this mistake you will find several cases where it's happened, tragically.

    The only reason I would see criminal negligence is because I would hold him to a higher standard of care in his duty as a BART officer than I would the average joe....in acting without due caution and circumspection under the circumstances - specifically because he has been trained to know the difference and he has someone's life in his hands. It's still Involuntary manslaughter.

    Those who want him found guilty of murder will blame Los Angeles juries - claiming they don't convict anyone. If he's found to be guilty of murder, the critics will say the jury was pressured - they don't want to be seen as racist and would fear for their lives. You can't win.

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    Re: Will Oakland Riot when the Mehserle (BART shooting) Verdict comes down?

    Post by Guest on Thu Jul 08, 2010 5:18 pm

    I have a friend who was working as an officer alone. He stopped a man for traffic violation nearly in front of his house. He ran the man and he came back as having outstanding warrants. He is obligated to arrest. A crowd is gathering. He called for backup. The man initially cooperated. He turned and placed his hands on the car. The officer did a pat down search for weapons and found none. He advised the man he was placing him under arrest.
    I will do my best here to explain the events here with a lack of visual aids.
    You have one suspect facing the car hands on the hood. One officer standing behind him. A crowd gathering. The officer grabbed the mans wrist and attempted to place his hand behind his back in order to cuff him. The man tensed up and resisted. The officer is a little guy weighing about 160. The suspect literally outweighted him by nearly 100lbs. The officer could feel that the suspect was significantly stronger than he was and the situation was going downhill fast. The crowd could not see that the man was resisting. The officer pushed the man toward the car and stepped back. As the suspect turned to face him the officer sprayed him in the face with pepper spray, subdued him, and cuffed him. Backup arrived.
    What the officer did was take control of a situation in the best way he could with the least use of force. Had he not acted he could have easily been rolling around on the ground with a man significantly larger than him both scrambling for the officers gun in front of the suspect family.
    What the family saw was the officer push someone and pepperspray them for no good reason. Sometimes it is hard to see how much someone is resisiting.
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    Re: Will Oakland Riot when the Mehserle (BART shooting) Verdict comes down?

    Post by ziggy on Thu Jul 08, 2010 5:20 pm

    Scott wrote:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eZTbJH6BNaU&feature=related
    Here is a link. Not a great quality video but this is it.
    I think the real question is....
    Would it be appropriate within the departmetns use of force guidelines for the officer to have tasered the man in this siutiaton? Was he resisting that much. From the video I honestly cannot tell. If yes it would okay to taser then this is not a crime it is an accident. If no not okay to taser then this is negligent manslaughter.
    I have to correctly state that the judge threw out the option for 1st degree murder - the jury won't be allowed to deliberate that. 2nd Degree, Voluntary Manslaughter, Involuntary Manslaughter or Aquittal.
    There was some testimony that even though it appeared he was on his stomach with his hands under control that the officers were losing control of the situation - that he could have been making a move to reach for something and in the ensuing chaos a snap decision was made to taser Grant - an unfortunate one, but the jury will have to figure out if that is totally unreasonable under the totality of the circumstances...remember there was more going on around them - Grant was not an isolated problem.

    The coverage of this trial has been really frustrating. Since it's not televised, the reporters are either lazy or just not interested or something. What up with that?
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    Re: Will Oakland Riot when the Mehserle (BART shooting) Verdict comes down?

    Post by ziggy on Thu Jul 08, 2010 5:22 pm

    Which makes me wonder...who the f**k would want to be a cop? You need to be more of a computer programmed agent than a human being with what we ask of them.

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    Re: Will Oakland Riot when the Mehserle (BART shooting) Verdict comes down?

    Post by Guest on Thu Jul 08, 2010 5:27 pm

    ziggy wrote:Which makes me wonder...who the f**k would want to be a cop? You need to be more of a computer programmed agent than a human being with what we ask of them.
    It is an extremely difficult job. They have fractional seconds to make life and death situations that are analyzed and critiqued by people who have the benefit of all the time they need and access to information the officer could not have possibly had at the time.
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    Re: Will Oakland Riot when the Mehserle (BART shooting) Verdict comes down?

    Post by ziggy on Thu Jul 08, 2010 5:38 pm

    True Dat Brother. I think sometimes we are just way too hard on them. I think many of them are assholes. I have had personal dealings with cops that are complete assholes...that's why I don't buy that much of what they do is racially motivated because I'm white, attractive, blonde and I have boobs and I've been treated like crap by local cops and a state trooper in TN. ONE nice cop stopped me and gave me a break only because I was sobbing so hard I couldn't breathe and he knew I was not faking my anxiety. I think that job attracts the best and the worst.
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    Re: Will Oakland Riot when the Mehserle (BART shooting) Verdict comes down?

    Post by ziggy on Thu Jul 08, 2010 6:53 pm

    Verdict is In - to be announced at 4:00 Pacific.
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    Re: Will Oakland Riot when the Mehserle (BART shooting) Verdict comes down?

    Post by ziggy on Thu Jul 08, 2010 7:14 pm

    Involuntary Manslaughter says the jury -

    I think that's fair but neither side is probably very happy.

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    Re: Will Oakland Riot when the Mehserle (BART shooting) Verdict comes down?

    Post by Guest on Thu Jul 08, 2010 7:27 pm

    Agreed.
    Without the benefit of seeing the evidence that the jury saw I cannot say for certain but sounds fair.
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    Re: Will Oakland Riot when the Mehserle (BART shooting) Verdict comes down?

    Post by Percy on Thu Jul 08, 2010 8:22 pm

    I need to read up on this case, I followed it for a week or two after it happened then got busy and lost track of it. Did they actually argue in court, as the BART officer said, that he got his Taser and firearm confused? I am really interested to see how that excuse played out and frankly I just dont buy it, I am a shooter, have shot both tasers and semi-autos and you simply cannot get them confused that easily, even if you did pull one but meant to pull the other, you would know immediately that you dont have in your hand what you intended to be there, even in a split second situation.

    Granted, I have fortunately never been in a situation where I have had to defend myself with lethal force or otherwise and I realize things can get murky and confusing in that split second when that decision has to be made, but as someone who has shot both I just find it extraordinarily unbelievable that one could confuse a firearm for a taser, they both feel totally different in your hand, one is much, much heavier than the other and the trigger mechanism for a taser is really not at all like that of a semi auto pistol which is what LE carries, usually of the glock variety.


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    Re: Will Oakland Riot when the Mehserle (BART shooting) Verdict comes down?

    Post by Guest on Thu Jul 08, 2010 8:54 pm

    Percy wrote:I need to read up on this case, I followed it for a week or two after it happened then got busy and lost track of it. Did they actually argue in court, as the BART officer said, that he got his Taser and firearm confused? I am really interested to see how that excuse played out and frankly I just dont buy it, I am a shooter, have shot both tasers and semi-autos and you simply cannot get them confused that easily, even if you did pull one but meant to pull the other, you would know immediately that you dont have in your hand what you intended to be there, even in a split second situation.

    Granted, I have fortunately never been in a situation where I have had to defend myself with lethal force or otherwise and I realize things can get murky and confusing in that split second when that decision has to be made, but as someone who has shot both I just find it extraordinarily unbelievable that one could confuse a firearm for a taser, they both feel totally different in your hand, one is much, much heavier than the other and the trigger mechanism for a taser is really not at all like that of a semi auto pistol which is what LE carries, usually of the glock variety.
    What other reasonable explanation is there? I find it hard to beleive the officer just elected to calmly shoot the man there in front of a crowd.
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    Re: Will Oakland Riot when the Mehserle (BART shooting) Verdict comes down?

    Post by Percy on Thu Jul 08, 2010 9:01 pm

    Scott wrote:
    Percy wrote:I need to read up on this case, I followed it for a week or two after it happened then got busy and lost track of it. Did they actually argue in court, as the BART officer said, that he got his Taser and firearm confused? I am really interested to see how that excuse played out and frankly I just dont buy it, I am a shooter, have shot both tasers and semi-autos and you simply cannot get them confused that easily, even if you did pull one but meant to pull the other, you would know immediately that you dont have in your hand what you intended to be there, even in a split second situation.

    Granted, I have fortunately never been in a situation where I have had to defend myself with lethal force or otherwise and I realize things can get murky and confusing in that split second when that decision has to be made, but as someone who has shot both I just find it extraordinarily unbelievable that one could confuse a firearm for a taser, they both feel totally different in your hand, one is much, much heavier than the other and the trigger mechanism for a taser is really not at all like that of a semi auto pistol which is what LE carries, usually of the glock variety.
    What other reasonable explanation is there? I find it hard to beleive the officer just elected to calmly shoot the man there in front of a crowd.
    Yea after reading a bit more I see youre right there really is no other reasonable explanation.


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    Re: Will Oakland Riot when the Mehserle (BART shooting) Verdict comes down?

    Post by ziggy on Fri Jul 09, 2010 12:34 am

    Yes I think the jury was able to handle both and feel the weight and apparently could understand making that fatal error. I've Googled it and it's happened before, not common - but I have sprayed my hair with deoderant and put antiobiotic cream on my toothbrush.

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    Re: Will Oakland Riot when the Mehserle (BART shooting) Verdict comes down?

    Post by Guest on Fri Jul 09, 2010 7:33 am

    Is it ironic that these types of mistakes happen becuase officers are issued less lethal weapons that are acutally designed to be safer for the suspect. Tasers, pepperspray, batons, bean bag guns, and pepperballs are not issued for officer safety. If it was only officer safety we were concerned about a firearm would be an acceptable substitute. They are issued to give an officer a viable alternative to stop a situation that requires some force but does not quite require deadly force.
    Point is if the officer had only a gun then these mistakes would not happen BUT then there would be other deaths that occurred becase the officers would not have less lethal force available to them when someone is threatening people with a straight razor at a bus station.
    We expect a LOT from police.
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    Re: Will Oakland Riot when the Mehserle (BART shooting) Verdict comes down?

    Post by ziggy on Fri Jul 09, 2010 3:20 pm

    It would be a lot safer to go back to a good old fashioned beating. You can tell a baton from a gun. This is why I am not a cop nor could I be. Someone acting up on me would be "handled" and I know I would be charged and fired. Sometimes I watch the cops risk their life chasing down a bunch of criminals and I think, "I would beat the snot out of them for doing that to me". Cops have a tough job.
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    Re: Will Oakland Riot when the Mehserle (BART shooting) Verdict comes down?

    Post by ziggy on Fri Jul 09, 2010 3:23 pm

    BTW there was looting and violence but it was mostly the anarchists and not the majority of those protesting the decision. There were many community ministers and pastors and groups out and about trying to ask for a peaceful demonstration. The also played music which was brilliant. It calms the soul.

    Maybe the riot police should have big vans that play spiritual chill music or soft R&B on loud speakers as they assemble to keep the peace. A little Van Morrison, Stevie Wonder, Marvin Gaye - fill the air with a giant pattern interruptor.

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    Re: Will Oakland Riot when the Mehserle (BART shooting) Verdict comes down?

    Post by Guest on Fri Jul 09, 2010 3:52 pm

    The looters were just opportunist criminals. To them controversial trial = opportunity to steal some new shoes. They have no political message.
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    Re: Will Oakland Riot when the Mehserle (BART shooting) Verdict comes down?

    Post by ziggy on Fri Jul 09, 2010 7:55 pm

    I know! They came knowing there would be cameras with bandanas and stuff ready to cover their faces and do the deed. They should have had post-Katrina rules of engagement with warnings....Looters will BE SHOT ON SITE. Sorry, I'm so harsh!!!!

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