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    Sam in court today September 20, 2010

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    ziggy

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    Re: Sam in court today September 20, 2010

    Post by ziggy on Wed Sep 22, 2010 12:43 pm

    But Eric - the functioning people that we want in our society understand what your friend did and it's called CONSEQUENCES. There are simply consequences and some people take the risk of recieving them more than others. That's why no form of punishment will be a deterrent for all people and not even death.

    There is, however, a zero recidivism rate for crimes against our society with the death penalty. There is no such statistic with other forms of rehabilitation or punishment.

    Do I think it's serious and should only be used for the most serious of crimes, the most heinous crimes committed with a complete and total disregard for the value of human life? Yeah. Me and everyone else. It's not like a joyful thing to have to carry out.

    We demand the wrong doers forfeit their freedom by incarcerating them - taking away their liberty. What is the difference in taking their lifetime of liberty and taking their life? It is still one of God given rights that we are taking. Some feel that demanding one forfeit his life for taking another is a just and fair forfeiture considering the nature of the crime.

    I LOVE our system where each state has the opportunity to decide how they want to carry out punishment for the worst of the worst.
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    tapu

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    Re: Sam in court today September 20, 2010

    Post by tapu on Wed Sep 22, 2010 3:58 pm

    That's really good, Ziggy. Succinct, yet you covered all the bases. You oughta be a lawyer. Smile
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    charliechan

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    Re: Sam in court today September 20, 2010

    Post by charliechan on Wed Sep 22, 2010 4:55 pm

    I thot it would prolly kinda end this way. As far as prison life, I don,t think most places put LWOP's in with the general pop. I could be wrong--P.S.--I'm usually wrong but I prefer to use the term "mistaken".
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    ericclimbs

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    Re: Sam in court today September 20, 2010

    Post by ericclimbs on Wed Sep 22, 2010 5:06 pm

    ziggy wrote:But Eric - the functioning people that we want in our society understand what your friend did and it's called CONSEQUENCES. There are simply consequences and some people take the risk of recieving them more than others. That's why no form of punishment will be a deterrent for all people and not even death.

    There is, however, a zero recidivism rate for crimes against our society with the death penalty. There is no such statistic with other forms of rehabilitation or punishment.

    Do I think it's serious and should only be used for the most serious of crimes, the most heinous crimes committed with a complete and total disregard for the value of human life? Yeah. Me and everyone else. It's not like a joyful thing to have to carry out.

    We demand the wrong doers forfeit their freedom by incarcerating them - taking away their liberty. What is the difference in taking their lifetime of liberty and taking their life? It is still one of God given rights that we are taking. Some feel that demanding one forfeit his life for taking another is a just and fair forfeiture considering the nature of the crime.

    I LOVE our system where each state has the opportunity to decide how they want to carry out punishment for the worst of the worst.

    Again, bolding by me.

    The difference is if ten years go by and new DNA evidence, or old DNA evidence re-examined with new technology, finds the alleged perp is actually innocent (and we all know this has happened) we can set them free. If you "accidentally" kill an innocent man you cannot unkill him.


    Last edited by ericclimbs on Wed Sep 22, 2010 5:08 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : spacing and incorrect pronoun)
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    ziggy

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    Re: Sam in court today September 20, 2010

    Post by ziggy on Wed Sep 22, 2010 6:29 pm

    ericclimbs wrote:
    ziggy wrote:But Eric - the functioning people that we want in our society understand what your friend did and it's called CONSEQUENCES. There are simply consequences and some people take the risk of recieving them more than others. That's why no form of punishment will be a deterrent for all people and not even death.

    There is, however, a zero recidivism rate for crimes against our society with the death penalty. There is no such statistic with other forms of rehabilitation or punishment.

    Do I think it's serious and should only be used for the most serious of crimes, the most heinous crimes committed with a complete and total disregard for the value of human life? Yeah. Me and everyone else. It's not like a joyful thing to have to carry out.

    We demand the wrong doers forfeit their freedom by incarcerating them - taking away their liberty. What is the difference in taking their lifetime of liberty and taking their life? It is still one of God given rights that we are taking. Some feel that demanding one forfeit his life for taking another is a just and fair forfeiture considering the nature of the crime.

    I LOVE our system where each state has the opportunity to decide how they want to carry out punishment for the worst of the worst.

    Again, bolding by me.

    The difference is if ten years go by and new DNA evidence, or old DNA evidence re-examined with new technology, finds the alleged perp is actually innocent (and we all know this has happened) we can set them free. If you "accidentally" kill an innocent man you cannot unkill him.

    I think that you can see by your post that that won't happen in a case like Sam's or like poor Dr. Petit in Connecticut. There is not going to be any reversal of 'whodunnit".

    Also by your post you can see that as technology becomes better, it is LESS likely that the innocent will be wrongly convicted. So are you saying that if we can tell that the person is guilty beyond ANY doubt - 100% proof positive, then the death penalty is OK?

    I'm with you - IF there is no DNA evidence and only eyewitness and shakey circumstantial evidence I wouldn't want to see the death penalty carried out.

    But now - let's stay on point with a case like this one and answer the question...since it is 100% true that he killed four people in cold blood, what's the difference in depriving him of liberty and depriving him of life at this point? There will be no "surprise he didn't do it" so that reasoning is clouding this particular issue.
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    claudicici

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    Re: Sam in court today September 20, 2010

    Post by claudicici on Wed Sep 22, 2010 6:32 pm

    ....and if killing another human is wrong shouldn't it be wrong period?
    I don't get were the line should be drawn.
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    ziggy

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    Re: Sam in court today September 20, 2010

    Post by ziggy on Wed Sep 22, 2010 8:09 pm

    No Claudi killing is not wrong - murdering is wrong. There is the difference.

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    Re: Sam in court today September 20, 2010

    Post by Guest on Wed Sep 22, 2010 9:21 pm

    ziggy wrote:No Claudi killing is not wrong - murdering is wrong. There is the difference.

    Agreed..time of war...self defense.
    Don't get too excited though Zig I have not switched sides.
    I have still yet to hear a compelling reason why the state needs to execute. At the risk of sounding like a broken record [anyone remember records?] It costs more. It cannot be reversed in the event of errors. It does not make us any safer. The only reasonable argument is that some people simply deserve to die. Wow... that is a dangerous road to go down.
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    claudicici

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    Re: Sam in court today September 20, 2010

    Post by claudicici on Wed Sep 22, 2010 11:53 pm

    How can another human have the right to decide who deserves to die?
    At the time someone murders someone they often believe that person deserves to die.

    I want to go back to comment about what Maunsapt said about trying to teach basic academics to children that lack so many other things.I think preventing these things to happen needs to start in the schools because there are many children that do not have that support in their families.
    Why do they teach math and reading but not simple coping skills?
    I know it's expensive to have therapists in every school but I think it would be so worth it.I think thinking about prevention is so much more important than thinking about consequences and punishment after the fact.
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    ziggy

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    Re: Sam in court today September 20, 2010

    Post by ziggy on Thu Sep 23, 2010 3:13 am

    Because once a child has detached and does not feel the normal remorseful feelings and has no conscience they cannot be rehabilitated.

    Claudi, there are such things as sociopathic and psychopathic persons - do you agree?

    How do we explain children who grow up with WAY worse conditions than Sam who turn out to be blessings on earth?

    I have to live with a sociopath in my life. It takes YEARS for people to realize that the best and only thing to do to save yourself is put as much distance between yourself and that person period. They don't have the normal fear we do, they cannot be reasoned with. They seem to feel remorse but are only mimicking what they think they are supposed to act like, but they don't feel it ever.

    If someone is about to kill me you best bet that they are going down first if I can help it. Should I feel bad? No. I did not murder that person; it's justifiable and excusable.

    What would you do? Sometimes it's necessary to take a life.

    Unless you've been close to a sociopath you have no idea. Studies show it takes the average person 10 years to figure out they are with someone like that. They twist your mind and you continually try to reason with them. Bad people just are. And I believe that delving into dark forces and opening yourself up to them is dangerous for the soul.


    When you have no spiritual essence or awareness all you are left with is ego. It is ego that becomes enraged; ego that acts out with spite and hate, jealousy etc.

    I'd rather teach Buddism than have some mealy mousey therapist trying to help kids, but that's just me.

    Ever see that Geico commercial that asks if a drill seargant would make a good therapist? Well that therapist would be me!!!

    Southernvagirl

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    Re: Sam in court today September 20, 2010

    Post by Southernvagirl on Thu Sep 23, 2010 9:31 pm

    maunsapt wrote:well, i have some questions still. lol. but, anyway, Sam's statement of killing everyone else besides Emma "they were in the wrong place at the wrong time." What's up with that?!? They were asleep! The father came to check on the others,,,and to be attacked from behind! Can a person be in some kind of rage to last for a few days? Is it possible? No time for any 'down time?'
    Three were killed in their sleep!!!!----in their own homes!!!! I also have a hard time with that statement by Sam----he went into each room!!!! They were all killed in separate places!!!
    With the magnitude of the kind of crime,,,i am glad none of the victims knew,,,and they didn't suffer the continued trauma their bodies succombed too.
    Claudici hit some good points as Sam living a life in a loveless environment,,,,from his life at his home environment then seeking a love he believed was solely for him,,,and then bang,,,,
    I also believe the genre he chose to be 'connected' with somehow got twisted in his thinking and make some of that into a real life experience. I could be wrong, but just some ideas running in my head.
    It is very scary working with kids, vulnerable kids, that live in a loveless environment---then having to try to teach the basic academics in a school environment!!!!---talk about a very hard task from a teacher's point of view. Survival is their main agenda for most of these kids...
    None-the-less, it is not acceptable to commit crimes no matter where you came from, how you were raised,,,etc.
    It would be interesting to read the mental/psychological report on Sam,,,
    as for nightmares of this case?----yes, i have had uneasy nights too,,,and had to literally focus my attention on other more positive things and try my hardest to erase the images and videos that were posted here ( i thank too, for those who gave fair warning ).
    I remember in the early days, many savvy peeps here were posting some horrific vids..I opened one up not knowing exactly what was there and it almost knocked me off my bed..sceerryy stuff...from that point on I wouldnt open them unless there was a warning from the poster.....how can anyone think that this music did not affect him..the blood, gore, murder etc...My opinion is the music put ideas in his brain that was ripe for a complete break in his own mind...I know the rest of you have debated this topic to death, just wanted to add my 2 cents....I dont believe the family and friends should be able to influence the outcome of a murder trial, period....How is thaT really fair to all of us as a whole who have to abide by our laws.....some can kill in a murderous rage brutally slaughtering 4 people and be given a LWOP when tonite they carried out the death penalty by a woman who did not even commit the crimes,,she paid someone else to do the killing of 2 people.This country has a messed up justice system and IMO lady justice is not blind at all...

    Southernvagirl

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    Re: Sam in court today September 20, 2010

    Post by Southernvagirl on Thu Sep 23, 2010 9:39 pm

    claudicici wrote:....even though obviously I'm against the death penalty all together I'm TOTALLY comfortable with the victims families deciding what punishment should be applied.
    I'm glad they seem to have influence,they should.It's about them.It's about an outcome that brings the most amount of closure to their situation I think.
    and I understand why Petit would want nothing less than death in that case.
    I think that case is very different from Sam's case.
    I could not disagree with you more....Both of these cases involve horrendous acts of violence..pure evil..total destruction to all victims.Regardless of the mindset or the motives of either crimes they should have recieved the same sentence,,either LWOP or the death penalty...How can lady justice be fair when she is NOT blind????

    Southernvagirl

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    Re: Sam in court today September 20, 2010

    Post by Southernvagirl on Thu Sep 23, 2010 9:41 pm

    Scott wrote:
    tapu wrote:Two things I've been thinking about the DP:

    One has to do with the cost of execution vs. the cost of LWOP. While that is true given the current system, the costs of execution are largely due to the appeals process. I know we want an appeals process; nonetheless, the argument is not as simple as "LWOP costs more."


    The other thing is about prosecutors' decisions in these two cases. Petit was adamant about the death penalty, and the prosecutor reportedly let that weigh a lot in deciding if s/he would accept the guilty pleas. Family and friends of Debra Kelly were demonstrably against the death penalty, and the prosecutor accepted Sam's plea. Does that seem right? I'm not comfortable with the convictions of the victims or their families influencing how the DP is applied.
    Just for discussion sake I say let's put the blindfold back on lady justice as it should be.
    So for the sake of discussion. If it was up to you to make whatever changes.. what would you do?

    Southernvagirl

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    Re: Sam in court today September 20, 2010

    Post by Southernvagirl on Thu Sep 23, 2010 9:45 pm

    ericclimbs wrote:
    ziggy wrote:(respectfully snipped) Not everyone who seeks or supports the death penalty has vengence in their hearts.

    But Zig its been shown the Death Penalty is not a deterrent so what would be any other reason for it?

    I'd like to add, as for myself, I am not necessarily against the DP on moral grounds but rather on the fact that innocent people have been murdered (by the state) for a crime they did not commit. For me one of those is too many and an easy argument against the DP.
    Why do people say the death penalty is NO deterrant????? I can guarantee that when a person who has been sentenced to the death penalty,,that person will never ever commit another crime. How many excons have we all heard about who some way or the other cheated death, their sentence was comuted to Life, and they were released from prison to kill again...It has happened more than once..If the DP had been carried out,,that is a guarantee to deterrance.

    Southernvagirl

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    Re: Sam in court today September 20, 2010

    Post by Southernvagirl on Thu Sep 23, 2010 10:02 pm

    ziggy wrote:Because once a child has detached and does not feel the normal remorseful feelings and has no conscience they cannot be rehabilitated.

    Claudi, there are such things as sociopathic and psychopathic persons - do you agree?

    How do we explain children who grow up with WAY worse conditions than Sam who turn out to be blessings on earth?

    I have to live with a sociopath in my life. It takes YEARS for people to realize that the best and only thing to do to save yourself is put as much distance between yourself and that person period. They don't have the normal fear we do, they cannot be reasoned with. They seem to feel remorse but are only mimicking what they think they are supposed to act like, but they don't feel it ever.

    If someone is about to kill me you best bet that they are going down first if I can help it. Should I feel bad? No. I did not murder that person; it's justifiable and excusable.

    What would you do? Sometimes it's necessary to take a life.

    Unless you've been close to a sociopath you have no idea. Studies show it takes the average person 10 years to figure out they are with someone like that. They twist your mind and you continually try to reason with them. Bad people just are. And I believe that delving into dark forces and opening yourself up to them is dangerous for the soul.


    When you have no spiritual essence or awareness all you are left with is ego. It is ego that becomes enraged; ego that acts out with spite and hate, jealousy etc.

    I'd rather teach Buddism than have some mealy mousey therapist trying to help kids, but that's just me.

    Ever see that Geico commercial that asks if a drill seargant would make a good therapist? Well that therapist would be me!!!
    Thank You excellant post, especially the part about one delving oneself into dark places of their soul.

    Southernvagirl

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    Re: Sam in court today September 20, 2010

    Post by Southernvagirl on Thu Sep 23, 2010 10:17 pm

    Hey Ziggy, you are one smart cookie and you will be an excellant lawyer, IMO...I agree more with your post than any other.....I am kinda jealous...when I first posted with you over at WS, I could tell if we were to meet when I was your age we would have been bestest friends...I turn 60 next week and if I had been given the love and support when I was a child coming up, I too would have gone to law school..I never had the first parent or grandparent ever attend a PTA meeting,,no one really cared....Growing up without love in the home, seeing one parent beat the shit out of the other, seeing your Mothers face bleed profusly from getting a phone smacked in her face (Im talking about the heavy duty ones of the 50's) her having to have stitches all across her forehead, us kids hiding under the table for fear of our own lives...I could write a book, about child abuse...I lived it..I am not now nor ever felt like killing someone to the point of actually doing it,,,sure I have had some bad thoughts, but my grandmother taught me the Bible and had me in her church when I was young and those values of life stayed with me..Just because this SAM person was raised in a home without love did not make him a butcher 4 people.

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    Re: Sam in court today September 20, 2010

    Post by Guest on Thu Sep 23, 2010 11:26 pm

    ziggy wrote:Because once a child has detached and does not feel the normal remorseful feelings and has no conscience they cannot be rehabilitated.
    Claudi, there are such things as sociopathic and psychopathic persons - do you agree?

    How do we explain children who grow up with WAY worse conditions than Sam who turn out to be blessings on earth?

    I have to live with a sociopath in my life. It takes YEARS for people to realize that the best and only thing to do to save yourself is put as much distance between yourself and that person period. They don't have the normal fear we do, they cannot be reasoned with. They seem to feel remorse but are only mimicking what they think they are supposed to act like, but they don't feel it ever.

    If someone is about to kill me you best bet that they are going down first if I can help it. Should I feel bad? No. I did not murder that person; it's justifiable and excusable.

    What would you do? Sometimes it's necessary to take a life.

    Unless you've been close to a sociopath you have no idea. Studies show it takes the average person 10 years to figure out they are with someone like that. They twist your mind and you continually try to reason with them. Bad people just are. And I believe that delving into dark forces and opening yourself up to them is dangerous for the soul.


    When you have no spiritual essence or awareness all you are left with is ego. It is ego that becomes enraged; ego that acts out with spite and hate, jealousy etc.

    I'd rather teach Buddism than have some mealy mousey therapist trying to help kids, but that's just me.

    Ever see that Geico commercial that asks if a drill seargant would make a good therapist? Well that therapist would be me!!!

    in reference to what I bolded above, so very true indeed. It is really scary to see more and more young people====kids!!! no less, that are with no conscience of what is right or wrong,,,that's scary!!!

    I agree with the comment about the mode of TEACHING READING AND MATH TO GET UP THE DAMN TEST SCORES TO GET THE SCHOOL DISTRICT UP TO NATIONAL AVERAGE....grrrrr!

    A dedicated teacher should learn how to teach coping skills as well as the basic academics. Because it is true, can't teach much academically if you can't get past the survival needs of a traumatized kid. That is where you will have to model, model, model what is appropriate. It is a very tiring job. What is even more frustrating, is you can help the student to a certain extent to feel safe in school, but once they are out and on to home/environment,,,,many times what you taught them leaves them and back into hypervigilance and survival. Sad it is very sad.


    Although, I am curious about the psychological report(s).

    It would be nice to know all about Sam, in the womb, life he lived, all the factors involved, that could have (or maybe not at all), influenced him to the point of the horrendous act he did. the music he chose, the violent games he chose, the nonviolent games, anything and everything that he was exposed to. could have had an impact on him some kind of way that led to this kind of behavior. And then there is pure evil----or the person with no conscience of right or wrong, or who could care less of the ramifications as to their misdeeds...it's a fine line if there is one, as why some folks commit crimes, and why some don't at all.

    somethings we will probably never know.

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    Re: Sam in court today September 20, 2010

    Post by Guest on Fri Sep 24, 2010 6:50 am

    Southernvagirl wrote:
    ericclimbs wrote:
    ziggy wrote:(respectfully snipped) Not everyone who seeks or supports the death penalty has vengence in their hearts.

    But Zig its been shown the Death Penalty is not a deterrent so what would be any other reason for it?

    I'd like to add, as for myself, I am not necessarily against the DP on moral grounds but rather on the fact that innocent people have been murdered (by the state) for a crime they did not commit. For me one of those is too many and an easy argument against the DP.
    Why do people say the death penalty is NO deterrant????? I can guarantee that when a person who has been sentenced to the death penalty,,that person will never ever commit another crime. How many excons have we all heard about who some way or the other cheated death, their sentence was comuted to Life, and they were released from prison to kill again...It has happened more than once..If the DP had been carried out,,that is a guarantee to deterrance.
    I claim that the death penalty is no deterrant becuase every study that has ever addressed the subject has come to the same conclusion. States that do have the death penalty do not have lower murder rates than those that do.
    Can you refer to any specific case where someone was sentenced to die, had a sentence commuted, was released, and killed again? It is the scary type of worst case scenario that people talk about but I cannot think of any case where it actually happened.
    I question that anyone serving a life sentence feels like they got away with something.

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    Re: Sam in court today September 20, 2010

    Post by Guest on Fri Sep 24, 2010 6:53 am

    Southernvagirl wrote:Hey Ziggy, you are one smart cookie and you will be an excellant lawyer, IMO...I agree more with your post than any other.....I am kinda jealous...when I first posted with you over at WS, I could tell if we were to meet when I was your age we would have been bestest friends...I turn 60 next week and if I had been given the love and support when I was a child coming up, I too would have gone to law school..I never had the first parent or grandparent ever attend a PTA meeting,,no one really cared....Growing up without love in the home, seeing one parent beat the shit out of the other, seeing your Mothers face bleed profusly from getting a phone smacked in her face (Im talking about the heavy duty ones of the 50's) her having to have stitches all across her forehead, us kids hiding under the table for fear of our own lives...I could write a book, about child abuse...I lived it..I am not now nor ever felt like killing someone to the point of actually doing it,,,sure I have had some bad thoughts, but my grandmother taught me the Bible and had me in her church when I was young and those values of life stayed with me..Just because this SAM person was raised in a home without love did not make him a butcher 4 people.
    I'm sorry you had to grow up in that situation. I agree with you, a poor home environment alone did not make Sam do what he did. Ultimately only Sam is responsible. We all make choices.

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    Re: Sam in court today September 20, 2010

    Post by Guest on Fri Sep 24, 2010 9:13 am

    Southernvagirl wrote:
    Scott wrote:
    tapu wrote:Two things I've been thinking about the DP:

    One has to do with the cost of execution vs. the cost of LWOP. While that is true given the current system, the costs of execution are largely due to the appeals process. I know we want an appeals process; nonetheless, the argument is not as simple as "LWOP costs more."


    The other thing is about prosecutors' decisions in these two cases. Petit was adamant about the death penalty, and the prosecutor reportedly let that weigh a lot in deciding if s/he would accept the guilty pleas. Family and friends of Debra Kelly were demonstrably against the death penalty, and the prosecutor accepted Sam's plea. Does that seem right? I'm not comfortable with the convictions of the victims or their families influencing how the DP is applied.
    Just for discussion sake I say let's put the blindfold back on lady justice as it should be.
    So for the sake of discussion. If it was up to you to make whatever changes.. what would you do?

    Odd formatting since I did not post the part in red originally. Was this a question directed at me?
    I suppose it only fair that I address it as I posed a similar question to others.
    First justice has never been blind. Never in the history of humankind has a totally impartial system existed. It cannot because any system of justice is populated by people who will bring their own experience, prejudice, opinions, ideas, and beliefs to any situation before them. What is just and right to one is injust to another. We have fewer than 10 regular posters on this forum and we cannot agree on everything. How would it be possible to get a nation of 300 million all on the same page?

    If I could make changes to the system I would do the following:
    1] I would be tougher on violent crime. Life without parole or death is not the real issue in MOST violent crimes. I beleive it was last year in Portsmouth VA a man name Matthew Anderson was angry that his ex wife had a new boyfriend. He followed the man in a car, drove him off the road, caused him to crash, then got out and when the man was pinned in the wreckage of his car Mr. Anderson walked up and shot him in the face with a.45 pistol. Mr. Anderson accepted a plea to murder 2 with a sentence of 15 years. That is ABSURD. The norm for murder should be life. I would want to see some very compelling mitigtaing circumstances to consider anything less for a homocide.
    2] Stop wasting time on marijuana. Is pot good for anyone? NO. Does it does do anything positive? NO. Do I smoke pot? NO. Would I smoke pot if it was legal? NO. Is fighting pot worth the reasources that we endlessly pour into it? NO Take the officers that are assigned working undercover buying dime bags at frat parties and put them on an anti pedophile task force.
    3] Treat corporate crime like CRIME rather than a civil dispute. If you look at simply a dollar cost to society corporate and white colar crime eclipses everything else combined. The single mom that is shoplifting baby formula is not a threat to our way of life. Multi billion dollar coroprations that commit fraud at the highest levels are. Ask a former low / mid level Enron employee that woke up after 20 years to discover they had no retirement account what they would have preferred law enforcement to work on. The people who commit these crimes notoriously get a pass. Penalties are handled like a negotiation, fines are paid with money that is not theirs, business goes on as usual. If you took the top 10 offending ceos and sent them to prison for a hard 10 - 20 then their replacements would likely not have the same screw all the little people attitude.
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    ericclimbs

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    Re: Sam in court today September 20, 2010

    Post by ericclimbs on Fri Sep 24, 2010 1:23 pm

    ziggy wrote:
    ericclimbs wrote:
    ziggy wrote:But Eric - the functioning people that we want in our society understand what your friend did and it's called CONSEQUENCES. There are simply consequences and some people take the risk of recieving them more than others. That's why no form of punishment will be a deterrent for all people and not even death.

    There is, however, a zero recidivism rate for crimes against our society with the death penalty. There is no such statistic with other forms of rehabilitation or punishment.

    Do I think it's serious and should only be used for the most serious of crimes, the most heinous crimes committed with a complete and total disregard for the value of human life? Yeah. Me and everyone else. It's not like a joyful thing to have to carry out.

    We demand the wrong doers forfeit their freedom by incarcerating them - taking away their liberty. What is the difference in taking their lifetime of liberty and taking their life? It is still one of God given rights that we are taking. Some feel that demanding one forfeit his life for taking another is a just and fair forfeiture considering the nature of the crime.

    I LOVE our system where each state has the opportunity to decide how they want to carry out punishment for the worst of the worst.

    Again, bolding by me.

    The difference is if ten years go by and new DNA evidence, or old DNA evidence re-examined with new technology, finds the alleged perp is actually innocent (and we all know this has happened) we can set them free. If you "accidentally" kill an innocent man you cannot unkill him.

    I think that you can see by your post that that won't happen in a case like Sam's or like poor Dr. Petit in Connecticut. There is not going to be any reversal of 'whodunnit".

    Also by your post you can see that as technology becomes better, it is LESS likely that the innocent will be wrongly convicted. So are you saying that if we can tell that the person is guilty beyond ANY doubt - 100% proof positive, then the death penalty is OK?

    I'm with you - IF there is no DNA evidence and only eyewitness and shakey circumstantial evidence I wouldn't want to see the death penalty carried out.

    But now - let's stay on point with a case like this one and answer the question...since it is 100% true that he killed four people in cold blood, what's the difference in depriving him of liberty and depriving him of life at this point? There will be no "surprise he didn't do it" so that reasoning is clouding this particular issue.

    I suppose we can argue until we are blue in the face but are you proposing that there be two different standards to applying the death penalty? As in we know for sure he did it so lethal inject the person. And then one where we say well we're pretty darn sure he did it but, there does remain this little bit of nagging doubt (which should have resulted in a acquittal or hung jury in the first place), so we better not execute this person just in case. And then who is supposed to make that decision when it comes to sentencing?

    As I said before I'm not against the DP on moral grounds. This is about irreversible punishment. Innocent people have been murdered by the state. Lots of them. I've looked it up. Point well taken about advances in DNA testing helping to keep this from happening as much but, still, are you willing to risk it?

    Like you, though, I'm a big fan of state's rights. You may not like a state's laws, as much as you'd like to live in that state, but at least you have the right to move to a state which is more favorable to your views.
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    ziggy

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    Re: Sam in court today September 20, 2010

    Post by ziggy on Fri Sep 24, 2010 1:58 pm

    ericclimbs wrote:
    ziggy wrote:
    ericclimbs wrote:
    ziggy wrote:But Eric - the functioning people that we want in our society understand what your friend did and it's called CONSEQUENCES. There are simply consequences and some people take the risk of recieving them more than others. That's why no form of punishment will be a deterrent for all people and not even death.

    There is, however, a zero recidivism rate for crimes against our society with the death penalty. There is no such statistic with other forms of rehabilitation or punishment.

    Do I think it's serious and should only be used for the most serious of crimes, the most heinous crimes committed with a complete and total disregard for the value of human life? Yeah. Me and everyone else. It's not like a joyful thing to have to carry out.

    We demand the wrong doers forfeit their freedom by incarcerating them - taking away their liberty. What is the difference in taking their lifetime of liberty and taking their life? It is still one of God given rights that we are taking. Some feel that demanding one forfeit his life for taking another is a just and fair forfeiture considering the nature of the crime.

    I LOVE our system where each state has the opportunity to decide how they want to carry out punishment for the worst of the worst.

    Again, bolding by me.

    The difference is if ten years go by and new DNA evidence, or old DNA evidence re-examined with new technology, finds the alleged perp is actually innocent (and we all know this has happened) we can set them free. If you "accidentally" kill an innocent man you cannot unkill him.

    I think that you can see by your post that that won't happen in a case like Sam's or like poor Dr. Petit in Connecticut. There is not going to be any reversal of 'whodunnit".

    Also by your post you can see that as technology becomes better, it is LESS likely that the innocent will be wrongly convicted. So are you saying that if we can tell that the person is guilty beyond ANY doubt - 100% proof positive, then the death penalty is OK?

    I'm with you - IF there is no DNA evidence and only eyewitness and shakey circumstantial evidence I wouldn't want to see the death penalty carried out.

    But now - let's stay on point with a case like this one and answer the question...since it is 100% true that he killed four people in cold blood, what's the difference in depriving him of liberty and depriving him of life at this point? There will be no "surprise he didn't do it" so that reasoning is clouding this particular issue.

    I suppose we can argue until we are blue in the face but are you proposing that there be two different standards to applying the death penalty? As in we know for sure he did it so lethal inject the person. And then one where we say well we're pretty darn sure he did it but, there does remain this little bit of nagging doubt (which should have resulted in a acquittal or hung jury in the first place), so we better not execute this person just in case. And then who is supposed to make that decision when it comes to sentencing?

    As I said before I'm not against the DP on moral grounds. This is about irreversible punishment. Innocent people have been murdered by the state. Lots of them. I've looked it up. Point well taken about advances in DNA testing helping to keep this from happening as much but, still, are you willing to risk it?

    Like you, though, I'm a big fan of state's rights. You may not like a state's laws, as much as you'd like to live in that state, but at least you have the right to move to a state which is more favorable to your views.

    I dare you and double dog dare you to find me LOTS of examples of innocent people who were executed, then again I'd settle for a few if you can find them.
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    Re: Sam in court today September 20, 2010

    Post by ziggy on Fri Sep 24, 2010 2:29 pm

    AndresEscobar wrote:Snuck in to catch this. Not with a bang but a whimper, eh?

    I'll weigh in on a few things here:

    Obviously, the plea deal is not a surprise, and as I've argued makes sense for all involved. With regard to whether Sam would "like" a trail, I doubt it. Trials are not fun experiences for anyone involved. They are high stress environments, and with the prospect of the death penalty hanging over the trial it's even worse. Sam had to accept the plea agreement, which means he didn't want it to go to trial. He listened to his lawyer. Smart.

    I also think it's interested that rumors of posing of the bodies, mutilation of the bodies, sending pictures of the bodies to friends, etc were overblown. The video that Sam made was a confession. The drive that Sam took may have been in contemplation of suicide.

    Also, apparently the ball peen hammer was just noise from the media.

    With regard to whether we'll "hear" from Sam again, I understand what you're implying but with LWOP the only way you'll hear from him is if he does some sort of in-jail interview. Oh, and when he dies. But that's certain to happen.

    Just found out from tapu that in the Connecticut Petit home invasion murder trials (each defendant being tried separately) the DA rejected a plea deal for LWOP on these guys and wanted to have a trial to seek the DP. The trial is grisly and I wonder if the survivor of the ordeal, Dr. Petit, had something to do with that. He wants these guys to get the DP. Seems like the DA follows more what the family might want. The DA here could have done that. The DA saying there was a risk with a jury trial to the family, as if Sam might get a reduced charge or something - that's just hot stinky BS; not in a case like this. That's a bit disingenuous. If it is what the family wanted and that is the reason I think it's the right thing - plus Sam is guilty so admitting guilt is also the right thing. Trying to play it like it was a legal strategy by the DA is laughable. Bowen was smart and Sam listened so I agree, that was smart.

    The media is white washing some of this - saying that Sam chose the maul because his victims wouldn't suffer as much...WTF? There is more to the story Andreas, more. Those little snippets don't tell us much and there are still a lot of holes. The basic story is that Sam had a fight with Emma, things weren't turning out like he hoped and everyone else was just in the wrong place at the wrong time. Sounds sanitized for your protection.

    I doubt anyone will try to find out what happened. All the reporters in the immediate area are too sensitive to the family to want to publish anything like that and nobody else really cares.

    FYI my ex brother-in-law was the LA County Sher. Dep. who transported O.J. to court and also Ramirez the Nightstalker and actually took Ramirez into the court room. John said many of them do like going to court - Ramirez got a big kick out of his trial...loved trying to manipulate the media. OJ was always in a snappy mood on his way to trial. Some of them love the attention and are so detached from right and wrong so they aren't sitting there all remorseful like you defense attorneys would like to portray LOL. "Normal" folk probably do not enjoy going to trial duh, but these types of killers are anything but. Sam is in that catagory.


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    Re: Sam in court today September 20, 2010

    Post by Guest on Fri Sep 24, 2010 2:32 pm

    http://www.justicedenied.org/executed.htm

    Partial list and brief description of executed inmates that died with significant questions of guilt still remaining.
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    Re: Sam in court today September 20, 2010

    Post by ericclimbs on Fri Sep 24, 2010 2:40 pm

    I stand corrected. By lots I was incorrectly referencing folks on Death Row pardoned after being found guilty of murder. But I do have your one or two or a few who were officially pardoned post-mortem. How often do you think a state is going to take the political risk, not to mention financial, of admitting to killing an innocent person?

    From [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

    Georgia Board to Pardon Woman 60 Years After Her Execution - The Georgia Board of Pardons and Paroles has announced that it will issue a formal pardon this month for Lena Baker (pictured), the only woman executed in the state during the 20th century. The document, signed by all five of the current board members, will note that the parole board's 1945 decision to deny Baker clemency and allow her execution was "a grievous error, as this case called out for mercy." Baker, an African American, was executed for the murder of Ernest Knight, a white man who hired her . Baker was tried, convicted, and sentenced to die in one day by an all-white, all-male jury. Baker claimed she shot Knight in self-defense after he locked her in his gristmill and threatened her with a metal pipe. The pardon notes that Baker "could have been charged with voluntary manslaughter, rather than murder, for the death of E.B. Knight." The average sentence for voluntary manslaughter is 15 years in prison. Baker's picture and her last words are currently displayed near the retired electric chair at a museum at Georgia State Prison in Reidsville. (Atlanta Journal-Constitution, August 16, 2005). See Race, Clemency and Women.

    South Carolina Pair Exonerated 94 Years After Execution - The South Carolina Department of Probation, Parole and Pardon Services voted 7-0 to pardon Thomas Griffin and Meeks Griffin for the 1913 murder of former Confederate Army veteran John Q . Lewis. The pair were executed in 1915 for the murder after another man, Monk Stephenson, plead guilty and received a life sentence in exchange for implicating the Griffins. "Stevenson later told a fellow inmate that he had implicated the Griffin brothers because he believed they were wealthy enough to pay for legal counsel, and as such would be acquitted," said legal historian Paul Finkelman. Two others, Nelson Brice and John Crosby, were also executed for the crime. The pair were great uncles of nationally syndicated radio show host Tom Joyner. "It's good for the community. It's good for the nation. Anytime that you can repair racism in this country is a step forward," Joyner said. (CNN.com, October 15, 2009) See also Race and Innocence.


    Executed but with huge question marks hanging as to the veracity of the conviction:

    There is no way to tell how many of the over 1,000 people executed since 1976 may also have been innocent. Courts do not generally entertain claims of innocence when the defendant is dead. Defense attorneys move on to other cases where clients' lives can still be saved. Some cases with strong evidence of innocence include:

    Carlos DeLuna Texas Conviction: 1983, Executed: 1989
    Ruben Cantu Texas Convicted: 1985, Executed: 1993
    Larry Griffin Missouri Conviction: 1981, Executed: 1995
    Joseph O'Dell Virginia Conviction: 1986, Executed: 1997
    David Spence Texas Conviction: 1984, Executed: 1997
    Leo Jones Florida Convicted: 1981, Executed: 1998
    Gary Graham Texas Convicted: 1981, Executed: 2000
    Cameron Willingham Texas Convicted: 1992, Executed: 2004


    Pardoned from Death Row. Source: [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

    List of exonerated death row inmates:

    United States
    [edit] 1970-1979


    1973.

    * 1. David Keaton Florida (Keaton v. State, 273 So.2d 385 (1973)). Convicted 1971.

    1974

    * 2. Samuel A. Poole North Carolina (State v. Poole, 203 S.E.2d 786 (N.C. 1974)). Convicted 1973.

    1975.

    * 3. Wilbert Lee Florida (Pitts v. State 247 So.2d 53 (Fla. 1971), overturned and released by pardon in 1975). Convicted 1963.

    * 4. Freddie Pitts Florida (Pitts v. State 247 So.2d 53 (Fla. 1971), overturned and released by pardon in 1975). Convicted 1965.

    * 5. James Creamer Georgia (Emmett v. Ricketts, 397 F. Supp 1025 (N.D. Ga. 1975)). Convicted 1973.

    * 6. Christopher Spicer North Carolina (State v. Spicer, 204 SE 2d 641 (1974)). Convicted 1973.

    1976

    * 7. Thomas Gladish New Mexico. Convicted 1974.

    * 8. Richard Greer New Mexico. Convicted 1974.

    * 9. Ronald Keine New Mexico. Convicted 1974.

    * 10. Clarence Smith New Mexico. Convicted 1974.

    1977.

    * 11. Delbert Tibbs Florida. Convicted 1974.

    1978.

    * 12. Earl Charles Georgia. Convicted 1975.

    * 13. Jonathan Treadway Arizona. Convicted 1975.

    1979.

    * 14. Gary Beeman Ohio. Convicted 1976.

    [edit] 1980-1989

    1980

    * 15. Jerry Banks.
    * 16. Larry Hicks.

    1981

    * 17. Charles Ray Giddens.
    * 18. Michael Linder.
    * 19. Johnny Ross.
    * 20. Ernest (Shuhaa) Graham.

    1982

    * 21. Annibal Jaramillo.
    * 22. Lawyer Johnson Massachusetts (Commonwealth v. Johnson, 429 N.E.2d 726 (1982)). Convicted 1971.

    1985

    * 23. Larry Fisher.

    1986

    * 24. Anthony Brown.
    * 25. Neil Ferber.
    * 26. Clifford Henry Bowen.

    1987

    * 27. Joseph Green Brown.
    * 28. Perry Cobb.
    * 29. Darby (Williams) Tillis.
    * 30. Vernon McManus.
    * 31. Anthony Ray Peek.
    * 32. Juan Ramos.
    * 33. Robert Wallace.

    1988

    * 34. Richard Neal Jones.
    * 35. Willie Brown.
    * 36. Larry Troy.

    1989

    * 37. Randall Dale Adams Texas (Ex Parte Adams, 768 S.W.2d 281) (Tex. Crim App. 1989). Convicted 1977[3][4].
    * 38. Robert Cox.
    * 39. James Richardson.
    * On April 8, 2010, former death row inmate Timothy B. Hennis, once exonerated in 1989, was reconvicted of a triple murder, thereby dropping him from the list of those exonerated. [1] Sentenced to death by military court-martial 15 April 2010

    [edit] 1990-1999

    1990

    * 40. Clarence Brandley Texas (Ex Parte Brandley, 781 S.W.2d 886 (Tex. Crim App. 1989). Convicted 1981.
    * 41. John C. Skelton.
    * 42. Dale Johnston.
    * 43. Jimmy Lee Mathers.

    1991

    * 44. Gary Nelson.
    * 45. Bradley P. Scott.
    * 46. Charles Smith.

    1992

    * 47. Jay C. Smith Pennsylvania. Convicted 1986.

    1993

    * 48. Kirk Bloodsworth Maryland. Convicted 1984. Exonerated 1993; first prisoner to be exonerated by DNA evidence. Serving life in prison when exonerated, as earlier death sentence was overturned.
    * 49. Federico M. Macias.
    * 50. Walter McMillan.
    * 51. Gregory R. Wilhoit Oklahoma. Convicted 1987. Along with Ron Williamson, Wilhoit later became the subject of John Grisham's 2006 non-fiction book The Innocent Man: Murder and Injustice in a Small Town[5].
    * 52. James Robison.
    * 53. Muneer Deeb.

    1994

    * 54. Andrew Golden.

    1995

    * 55. Adolph Munson.
    * 56. Robert Charles Cruz.
    * 57. Rolando Cruz.
    * 58. Alejandro Hernández.
    * 59. Sabrina Butler.

    1996

    * 60. Joseph Burrows. Joseph Burrows was released from death row after his attorney Kathleen Zellner persuaded the real killer to confess at the post-conviction hearing.
    * 61. Verneal Jimerson.
    * 62. Dennis Williams.
    * 63. Roberto Miranda.
    * 64. Gary Gauger.
    * 65. Troy Lee Jones.
    * 66. Carl Lawson.
    * 67. David Wayne Grannis.

    1997

    * 68. Ricardo Aldape Guerra.
    * 69. Benjamin Harris.
    * 70. Robert Hayes.
    * 71. Christopher McCrimmon.
    * 72. Randall Padgett.
    * 73. James Bo Cochran.

    1998

    * 74. Robert Lee Miller, Jr.
    * 75. Curtis Kyles.

    1999

    * 76. Shareef Cousin Louisiana (Louisiana v. Cousin, 710 So. 2d 1065 (1998)). Convicted 1996.
    * 77. Anthony Porter Illinois. Convicted 1983.
    * 78. Steven Smith.
    * 79. Ronald Williamson Oklahoma. Convicted 1988. Along with Gregory R. Wilhoit, Williamson later became the inspiration for and subject of John Grisham's 2006 non-fiction book The Innocent Man: Murder and Injustice in a Small Town[5].
    * 80. Ronald Jones.
    * 81. Clarence Dexter, Jr.
    * 82. Warren Douglas Manning.
    * 83. Alfred Rivera.

    [edit] 2000-2009

    2000

    * 84. Steve Manning.
    * 85. Eric Clemmons.
    * 86. Joseph Nahume Green.
    * 87. Earl Washington Virginia (pardoned). Convicted 1994 (1984, without life sentence).
    * 88. William Nieves.
    * 89. Frank Lee Smith (died prior to exoneration).
    * 90. Michael Graham.
    * 91. Albert Burrell.
    * 92. Oscar Lee Morris.

    2001

    * 93. Peter Limone.
    * 94. Gary Drinkard.
    * 95. Joachin José Martínez.
    * 96. Jeremy Sheets.
    * 97. Charles Fain.

    2002

    * 98. Juan Roberto Melendez-Colon Florida. Convicted 1984.
    * 99. Ray Krone Arizona (State v. Krone, 897 P.2d 621 (Ariz. 1995) (en banc)). Convicted 1992.
    * 100. Thomas Kimbell, Jr.
    * 101. Larry Osborne.

    2003

    * 102. Aaron Patterson.
    * 103. Madison Hobley.
    * 104. Leroy Orange.
    * 105. Stanley Howard.
    * 106. Rudolph Holton.
    * 107. Lemuel Prion.
    * 108. Wesley Quick.
    * 109. John Thompson.
    * 110. Timothy Howard Ohio. Convicted 1976.
    * 111. Gary Lamar James Ohio. Convicted 1976.
    * 112. Joseph Amrine.
    * 113. Nicholas Yarris Pennsylvania (Pennsylvania v. Yarris, No 690-OF1982, Court of Common Pleas, Delaware County, September 3, 2003. Order vacating conviction). Convicted 1982.


    In depth of a farily recent case already mentioned above. Source: [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

    A Reporter at Large
    Trial by Fire
    Did Texas execute an innocent man?
    by David Grann




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    Re: Sam in court today September 20, 2010

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